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The Selfish Gene, by Richard Dawkins. It describes what science believes life to be, and it can be very upsetting. Understanding it, however, made me a more con

by zedr 6y ago

The Selfish Gene, by Richard Dawkins. It describes what science believes life to be, and it can be very upsetting. Understanding it, however, made me a more confident and happier person than I was before.

fit2rule 6y ago
I found this book completely degrading, even to the point of nauseating .. it discounts tens of thousands of years of human experience with describing itself, producing a taxonomic monster that is of very little actual use to the common man beyond providing a convenient excuse for ones failings and for the nature of humankinds more banal spirit. Science can be repressive. Dawkins is a classic example of the iron fist in a velvet glove, imho. He justifies monstrosity with a technical crutch, and whether it is 'true' or not, at the end of this book I just felt like dirt. /just_like_my_opinion_man
- GlennS 6y ago
  I think you may have missed the point? It's not about genes for selfishness.
  - fit2rule 6y ago
    I didn't get that impression at all. What I walked away from was a feeling of dire unease at the popularity of Dawkins' opinion that human beings are machines that can be broken and manipulated by their environment, and that social scientists can exploit this fact to their own ends, in industry, culture and war. It may be 'true' inasmuch as the fact that applying his theories give predictable results, but even the most heinous oppressors of humankind were capable of such truth. When you remove the human spirit as a factor, eventually all you get is a pile of dirt. That, to me, was ultimately degrading in the end. I don't think modern science is as close to a solution of what makes life, life, as it thinks it is - but probably that's just my genetics, which has predisposed me for an interest in the metaphysical beyond test tubes and beakers ..
    - joeberon 6y ago
      Of course it's degrading, but it's true and it's the world we live in. It's okay if you want to put your hands over your ears and keep your eyes closed, but don't expect others to do the same, and don't be surprised when they have a better grip of reality.
      - fit2rule 6y ago
        Ah, there you go, exhibiting precisely the moral authority I find repugnant in followers of the Dawkins cult. What makes it true?
        deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
        fungiblecog 6y ago
        What makes it true is the enormous weight of evidence.
        fit2rule 6y ago
        Ignorance of counter-evidence is not truth.
        Eldt 6y ago
        Feel free to share
        fit2rule 6y ago
        I think the fact that Dawkins has become the very thing he so violently resists - a violent, intolerant fundamentalist who brooks no further questioning of his own authoritarian narrative - is evidence enough that there is still much, much to be discovered about the way life works. His is a cultural view, and we know for a fact that all culture is a lie which must be re-told in order to persist. The more the human mind finds answers, the more questions it reveals - such is the nature of an infinite universe and our struggle to perceive it. If "God" doesn't exist we humans sure do spend a lot of time attempting to become one. "God" may not be a "he" sitting "on a cloud", but may indeed just be the New Question beyond every Old Answer. This fact seems to be rabidly overlooked by the Dawkins cult, which prefers to define God in its own, limited terms, in order to find fault in their chosen pariah cultures. The jury is still out. On a scale of 1 to 7, 0.1 is just enough uncertainty to allow for yet more unanswered questions .. Dawkins, himself, has at least a little of the humility required to admit that.
- zedr 6y ago
  I appreciate your opinion. I think the book gives a very convincing explanation on how evolution works and how it shaped what we call "life". I do not remember Dawkins degrading human achievements in that book, so you might be referring to talks and lectures after the book was written. On the contrary, consider the following quote from the book: > “If there is a human moral to be drawn, it is that we must teach our children altruism, for we cannot expect it to be part of their biological nature. ” Let me quote another favourite author of mine on the same topic: > "There’s Nature, and she’s going to come out the way She is.", Feynman.
  - fit2rule 6y ago
    Indeed there is alignment, as one of my favourite quotes from one of my favourite authors brings to bear: “You must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool.” - Richard P. Feynman
- LukeBMM 6y ago
  I agree and couldn't have put it nearly as well.
- tim333 6y ago
  I agree that it has an unnecessarily downbeat take on the whole business. You can believe in science and evolution and have an "isn't it wonderful" attitude like say Feynman rather than the "We are survival machines – robot vehicles blindly programmed to preserve the selfish molecules known as genes" attitude of that book.
  - jconcilio 6y ago
    Surprised no one has (at least so far) in this long thread mentioned Feynman's books. Those were the real mind-benders for me. Absolutely made me think differently about myself and my place in the world.
xtiansimon 6y ago
Wow. I'm stoked to share this essay I recently discovered in the context of _mind bending_, and because some comments here are critical of Dawkins' views. Susan Blackmore. “Dangerous Memes; or, What the Pandorans Let Loose” (Cosmos & Culture, p.297) [2] Blackmore is writing about 'memes' and reacts to some of Dawkins' critics. I can't say to what degree Blackmore faithfully discusses the contents of 'Selfish Gene' (1976), because I've not read it. This can be found in the March release of NASA's e-book collection [1]. And specifically in this book: Cosmos & Culture: Cultural Evolution in a Cosmic Context Edited by Steven J. Dick and Mark L. Lupisella (2009?) [2] Enjoy! Let the debate continue... [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22718489 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22718489 [2]: https://www.nasa.gov/connect/ebooks/hist_culture_cosmos_deta.. https://www.nasa.gov/connect/ebooks/hist_culture_cosmos_deta....
- xtiansimon 6y ago
  Dunno why, but link #2 was borked. www.nasa.gov /connect /ebooks /hist_culture_cosmos_detail.html
ykevinator 6y ago
Second this, it's excellent

by zedr 6y ago

fit2rule 6y ago

I found this book completely degrading, even to the point of nauseating .. it discounts tens of thousands of years of human experience with describing itself, producing a taxonomic monster that is of very little actual use to the common man beyond providing a convenient excuse for ones failings and for the nature of humankinds more banal spirit. Science can be repressive. Dawkins is a classic example of the iron fist in a velvet glove, imho. He justifies monstrosity with a technical crutch, and whether it is 'true' or not, at the end of this book I just felt like dirt. /just_like_my_opinion_man

GlennS 6y ago
I think you may have missed the point? It's not about genes for selfishness.
- fit2rule 6y ago
  I didn't get that impression at all. What I walked away from was a feeling of dire unease at the popularity of Dawkins' opinion that human beings are machines that can be broken and manipulated by their environment, and that social scientists can exploit this fact to their own ends, in industry, culture and war. It may be 'true' inasmuch as the fact that applying his theories give predictable results, but even the most heinous oppressors of humankind were capable of such truth. When you remove the human spirit as a factor, eventually all you get is a pile of dirt. That, to me, was ultimately degrading in the end. I don't think modern science is as close to a solution of what makes life, life, as it thinks it is - but probably that's just my genetics, which has predisposed me for an interest in the metaphysical beyond test tubes and beakers ..
  - joeberon 6y ago
    Of course it's degrading, but it's true and it's the world we live in. It's okay if you want to put your hands over your ears and keep your eyes closed, but don't expect others to do the same, and don't be surprised when they have a better grip of reality.
    - fit2rule 6y ago
      Ah, there you go, exhibiting precisely the moral authority I find repugnant in followers of the Dawkins cult. What makes it true?
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
      - fungiblecog 6y ago
        What makes it true is the enormous weight of evidence.
        fit2rule 6y ago
        Ignorance of counter-evidence is not truth.
        Eldt 6y ago
        Feel free to share
        fit2rule 6y ago
        I think the fact that Dawkins has become the very thing he so violently resists - a violent, intolerant fundamentalist who brooks no further questioning of his own authoritarian narrative - is evidence enough that there is still much, much to be discovered about the way life works. His is a cultural view, and we know for a fact that all culture is a lie which must be re-told in order to persist. The more the human mind finds answers, the more questions it reveals - such is the nature of an infinite universe and our struggle to perceive it. If "God" doesn't exist we humans sure do spend a lot of time attempting to become one. "God" may not be a "he" sitting "on a cloud", but may indeed just be the New Question beyond every Old Answer. This fact seems to be rabidly overlooked by the Dawkins cult, which prefers to define God in its own, limited terms, in order to find fault in their chosen pariah cultures. The jury is still out. On a scale of 1 to 7, 0.1 is just enough uncertainty to allow for yet more unanswered questions .. Dawkins, himself, has at least a little of the humility required to admit that.
zedr 6y ago
I appreciate your opinion. I think the book gives a very convincing explanation on how evolution works and how it shaped what we call "life". I do not remember Dawkins degrading human achievements in that book, so you might be referring to talks and lectures after the book was written. On the contrary, consider the following quote from the book: > “If there is a human moral to be drawn, it is that we must teach our children altruism, for we cannot expect it to be part of their biological nature. ” Let me quote another favourite author of mine on the same topic: > "There’s Nature, and she’s going to come out the way She is.", Feynman.
- fit2rule 6y ago
  Indeed there is alignment, as one of my favourite quotes from one of my favourite authors brings to bear: “You must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool.” - Richard P. Feynman
LukeBMM 6y ago
I agree and couldn't have put it nearly as well.
tim333 6y ago
I agree that it has an unnecessarily downbeat take on the whole business. You can believe in science and evolution and have an "isn't it wonderful" attitude like say Feynman rather than the "We are survival machines – robot vehicles blindly programmed to preserve the selfish molecules known as genes" attitude of that book.
- jconcilio 6y ago
  Surprised no one has (at least so far) in this long thread mentioned Feynman's books. Those were the real mind-benders for me. Absolutely made me think differently about myself and my place in the world.

xtiansimon 6y ago

Wow. I'm stoked to share this essay I recently discovered in the context of _mind bending_, and because some comments here are critical of Dawkins' views. Susan Blackmore. “Dangerous Memes; or, What the Pandorans Let Loose” (Cosmos & Culture, p.297) [2] Blackmore is writing about 'memes' and reacts to some of Dawkins' critics. I can't say to what degree Blackmore faithfully discusses the contents of 'Selfish Gene' (1976), because I've not read it. This can be found in the March release of NASA's e-book collection [1]. And specifically in this book: Cosmos & Culture: Cultural Evolution in a Cosmic Context Edited by Steven J. Dick and Mark L. Lupisella (2009?) [2] Enjoy! Let the debate continue... [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22718489 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22718489 [2]: https://www.nasa.gov/connect/ebooks/hist_culture_cosmos_deta.. https://www.nasa.gov/connect/ebooks/hist_culture_cosmos_deta....

xtiansimon 6y ago
Dunno why, but link #2 was borked. www.nasa.gov /connect /ebooks /hist_culture_cosmos_detail.html

ykevinator 6y ago

Second this, it's excellent