6 ms·

In the short history of the Internet so far, domain names originally were free. Many of the early .com(mmercial) names, e.g., bbn.com, dec.com, etc., were regi

by x3blah 6y ago

In the short history of the Internet so far, domain names originally were free. Many of the early .com(mmercial) names, e.g., bbn.com, dec.com, etc., were registered for free. Some TLDs were non-commercial for a long time, e.g., Educase I think only began charging fees for .edu around 2006. For me, the question remains why do user have to pay for domain names. Users once had to pay for SSL certificates but it seems like Let's Encrypt found a way to work around that. Why can't the same be done for domain names. One could argue the "legitimacy" of LE certs is directly connected to, or even dependent upon, the "legitimacy" of the applicant's domain name registration. An ICANN-approved domain name registration is required to obtain a LE cert. Wonder why LE does not operate a domain name registry.

pochamago 6y ago
In the early days the demand for domain names was much lower. I'm not sure that there's a more fair way to distribute right now than putting a price tag on it.
tasuki 6y ago
> For me, the question remains why do user have to pay for domain names. Because they're scarce! Should you have `x3blah` or should I have it? If domain names are free, how do we decide who operates which domain? If I understood it right, one of the goals of Handshake is for names to be almost free. With a near-infinite number of TLDs which you can buy for as little as $0.09 (and renew for $0.02 every two years), less desired names become essentially free. Furthermore, you can become a registrar! With such a low cost (about $2 over our expected lifetime), you can charge extremely low fees for `domain.x3blah` or even give out the second level domains for free!
- x3blah 6y ago
  What if no one gets "x3blah" and we each get some random string, e.g., an ed25519 public key. Handshake looks like it wants to create another "gold rush" for "vanity" names. We have already had that. We have already seen how it plays out. It has been a while since I read through the Handshake docs. Are there limits on how many names a single applicant/organisation could register.
  - tasuki 6y ago
    > What if no one gets "x3blah" and we each get some random string, e.g., an ed25519 public key. I think you end up with TOR! Names are just nicer, more convenient, easier to remember. > Handshake looks like it wants to create another "gold rush" for "vanity" names. I don't think that was the goal, but yes, this gold rush is already happening, even though it's not clear whether Handshake will ever receive any meaningful adoption. And I can understand why you find it distasteful. > Are there limits on how many names a single applicant/organisation could register. There aren't, and if there were, they would be easy to bypass.
    - thinkmassive 6y ago
      Haha great point re: tor! You can even generate a vanity address using scallion. Of course, it’s subject to impersonation by a similar address if someone else wants it badly enough and has the hashpower to generate it. Personally I’m interested to see where Handshake goes. Thanks for your constructive comments on this article.
  - oarsinsync 6y ago
    I can enter x3blah from memory. I can print it on a poster when promoting my service. I can't memorise AAAAC3NzaC1lZDI1NTE5AAAAIFwAU7Q9tccWIyPviJuzAatFIgQZVRr7mExznfbUR9Il. I can't print it on a poster when promoting my service. I can use a QR code, but that's ripe for exploitation. Someone can easily replace the QR code on my poster, and there's no way for anyone viewing the poster to know that it's not the correct QR code. What's the point of the name at all if it's not memorable? Or to put it another way, do you really want email address AAAAC3NzaC1lZDI1NTE5AAAAIFwAU7Q9tccWIyPviJuzAatFIgQZVRr7mExznfbUR9Il@gmail.com?
    - squiggleblaz 6y ago
      > I can't memorise AAAAC3NzaC1lZDI1NTE5AAAAIFwAU7Q9tccWIyPviJuzAatFIgQZVRr7mExznfbUR9Il. I can't print it on a poster when promoting my service. I can use a QR code, but that's ripe for exploitation. Someone can easily replace the QR code on my poster, and there's no way for anyone viewing the poster to know that it's not the correct QR code. Which isn't a problem of the qr code, since you can't tell if someone replaced AAAAC3NzaC1lZDI1NTE5AAAAIFwAU7Q9tccWIyPviJuzAatFIgQZVRr7mExznfbUR9Il with AAAAC3NzaC1lZDI17TE5AAAAIFwAU7Q9tccWIyPviJuzAatFIgQZVRr7mExznfbUR9Il. At least you have a fighting chance of realising something is wrong when they say "x3blah has released a new album. Get it now from x4blah.com". Humans can only understand human understandable things.
- psychoslave 6y ago
  As of late 2019, there were about 3,6×10⁹ domain names registered it seems[11]. Taking "ycombinator.com" and keeping just the 11 ycombinator letters, and supposing you would allow only the 26 letters of alphabet, that's about 3.6×10¹⁶. That is 7 order of magnitude bellow the number of registered entries. The only scarcity here is the manufactured one. http://www.circleid.com/posts/20190829_verisign_q2_2019_industry_brief_internet_grows_to_354_7_m_domains/ http://www.circleid.com/posts/20190829_verisign_q2_2019_indu...
  - Rotten194 6y ago
    lets start two companies. i'll take coolnewcorp.com, and you can have qwrfggtylop.com. seems fair!
  - rasengan 6y ago
    Actually you’re absolutely correct. If there wasn’t scarcity built in, someone would simply take all the names in a Sybil attack.
  - gbear605 6y ago
    While the number of possible domain names is very high, the number of valuable ones is much lower.
pg-gadfly 6y ago
If they're free, I could instantly have all of them (in theory). A token price sets an easily-perceivable rate-limit to how many things you can acquire
- psychoslave 6y ago
  A limit on acquirable token by person would do the trick just as well, if not better. Those that feels like it is of worth can always create new moral entities to get new attached tokens, but will already have to pass the existing bureaucratic process required to do so.
  - fastball 6y ago
    How do you check that someone is a unique person? I'd rather pay 10¢ per domain than have to go through an involved KYC process just to register one for free.
    - bitxbitxbitcoin 6y ago
      Agreed. Currently on the internet, adding a cost or computing barrier is the best alternative to a KYC process in deferring bot activity.
  - asynch8 6y ago
    But then where do we draw the limit on that? Should then a person who might start a lot of companies be capped at a certain point? Seems like it's slipperly territory to tread onto.
toast0 6y ago
> For me, the question remains why do user have to pay for domain names. Payment acts as a kind of proof of life and continuing intrerest. And some sort of contact information for the holder. There are, of course, actual costs of running the registries, registrars and the root and tld servers. They're low per domain, but large in aggregate. Many countrie code TLDs have lower cost (or free) domains avaiable for users who are connected with that country, but they may not always be easy to find, and they may not look cool.

by x3blah 6y ago

pochamago 6y ago

In the early days the demand for domain names was much lower. I'm not sure that there's a more fair way to distribute right now than putting a price tag on it.

tasuki 6y ago

> For me, the question remains why do user have to pay for domain names. Because they're scarce! Should you have `x3blah` or should I have it? If domain names are free, how do we decide who operates which domain? If I understood it right, one of the goals of Handshake is for names to be almost free. With a near-infinite number of TLDs which you can buy for as little as $0.09 (and renew for $0.02 every two years), less desired names become essentially free. Furthermore, you can become a registrar! With such a low cost (about $2 over our expected lifetime), you can charge extremely low fees for `domain.x3blah` or even give out the second level domains for free!

x3blah 6y ago
What if no one gets "x3blah" and we each get some random string, e.g., an ed25519 public key. Handshake looks like it wants to create another "gold rush" for "vanity" names. We have already had that. We have already seen how it plays out. It has been a while since I read through the Handshake docs. Are there limits on how many names a single applicant/organisation could register.
- tasuki 6y ago
  > What if no one gets "x3blah" and we each get some random string, e.g., an ed25519 public key. I think you end up with TOR! Names are just nicer, more convenient, easier to remember. > Handshake looks like it wants to create another "gold rush" for "vanity" names. I don't think that was the goal, but yes, this gold rush is already happening, even though it's not clear whether Handshake will ever receive any meaningful adoption. And I can understand why you find it distasteful. > Are there limits on how many names a single applicant/organisation could register. There aren't, and if there were, they would be easy to bypass.
  - thinkmassive 6y ago
    Haha great point re: tor! You can even generate a vanity address using scallion. Of course, it’s subject to impersonation by a similar address if someone else wants it badly enough and has the hashpower to generate it. Personally I’m interested to see where Handshake goes. Thanks for your constructive comments on this article.
- oarsinsync 6y ago
  I can enter x3blah from memory. I can print it on a poster when promoting my service. I can't memorise AAAAC3NzaC1lZDI1NTE5AAAAIFwAU7Q9tccWIyPviJuzAatFIgQZVRr7mExznfbUR9Il. I can't print it on a poster when promoting my service. I can use a QR code, but that's ripe for exploitation. Someone can easily replace the QR code on my poster, and there's no way for anyone viewing the poster to know that it's not the correct QR code. What's the point of the name at all if it's not memorable? Or to put it another way, do you really want email address AAAAC3NzaC1lZDI1NTE5AAAAIFwAU7Q9tccWIyPviJuzAatFIgQZVRr7mExznfbUR9Il@gmail.com?
  - squiggleblaz 6y ago
    > I can't memorise AAAAC3NzaC1lZDI1NTE5AAAAIFwAU7Q9tccWIyPviJuzAatFIgQZVRr7mExznfbUR9Il. I can't print it on a poster when promoting my service. I can use a QR code, but that's ripe for exploitation. Someone can easily replace the QR code on my poster, and there's no way for anyone viewing the poster to know that it's not the correct QR code. Which isn't a problem of the qr code, since you can't tell if someone replaced AAAAC3NzaC1lZDI1NTE5AAAAIFwAU7Q9tccWIyPviJuzAatFIgQZVRr7mExznfbUR9Il with AAAAC3NzaC1lZDI17TE5AAAAIFwAU7Q9tccWIyPviJuzAatFIgQZVRr7mExznfbUR9Il. At least you have a fighting chance of realising something is wrong when they say "x3blah has released a new album. Get it now from x4blah.com". Humans can only understand human understandable things.
psychoslave 6y ago
As of late 2019, there were about 3,6×10⁹ domain names registered it seems[11]. Taking "ycombinator.com" and keeping just the 11 ycombinator letters, and supposing you would allow only the 26 letters of alphabet, that's about 3.6×10¹⁶. That is 7 order of magnitude bellow the number of registered entries. The only scarcity here is the manufactured one. http://www.circleid.com/posts/20190829_verisign_q2_2019_industry_brief_internet_grows_to_354_7_m_domains/ http://www.circleid.com/posts/20190829_verisign_q2_2019_indu...
- Rotten194 6y ago
  lets start two companies. i'll take coolnewcorp.com, and you can have qwrfggtylop.com. seems fair!
- rasengan 6y ago
  Actually you’re absolutely correct. If there wasn’t scarcity built in, someone would simply take all the names in a Sybil attack.
- gbear605 6y ago
  While the number of possible domain names is very high, the number of valuable ones is much lower.

pg-gadfly 6y ago

If they're free, I could instantly have all of them (in theory). A token price sets an easily-perceivable rate-limit to how many things you can acquire

psychoslave 6y ago
A limit on acquirable token by person would do the trick just as well, if not better. Those that feels like it is of worth can always create new moral entities to get new attached tokens, but will already have to pass the existing bureaucratic process required to do so.
- fastball 6y ago
  How do you check that someone is a unique person? I'd rather pay 10¢ per domain than have to go through an involved KYC process just to register one for free.
  - bitxbitxbitcoin 6y ago
    Agreed. Currently on the internet, adding a cost or computing barrier is the best alternative to a KYC process in deferring bot activity.
- asynch8 6y ago
  But then where do we draw the limit on that? Should then a person who might start a lot of companies be capped at a certain point? Seems like it's slipperly territory to tread onto.

toast0 6y ago

> For me, the question remains why do user have to pay for domain names. Payment acts as a kind of proof of life and continuing intrerest. And some sort of contact information for the holder. There are, of course, actual costs of running the registries, registrars and the root and tld servers. They're low per domain, but large in aggregate. Many countrie code TLDs have lower cost (or free) domains avaiable for users who are connected with that country, but they may not always be easy to find, and they may not look cool.