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There is no law being broken here, it's local county orders with (currently debated) legal authority by a single official.

rhizome 7y ago
"It's not illegal" is a shitty ethical basis.
- manigandham 7y ago
  Many other companies and factories are open, workers are not required to show up, and if they do they're following guidelines developed from the factory presence in China with thousands of unharmed employees. This is on top of most of the state being effectively open for weeks already. What is the ethical quandary here?
  - rhizome 7y ago
    Let's start with, "respecting public policy."
    - manigandham 7y ago
      What if public policy - or single official's order in this case - is wrong and they disagree with good reason?
      - rhizome 6y ago
        "Is wrong." OK, and just by force of personality Elon establishes that? Since when is Elon an epidemiologist? Sounds like about as much as he's a underwater rescue expert and ventilator manufacturer. Take a step back, he's a troll juicing his stock price 80% of the time. Read elsewhere where he has a $700B bonus hanging in the balance here, and so how is that not the simplest explanation? There's your "good reason." I believe the people who say it's still unsafe. If you don't and want or need the work, I think they're hiring in Fremont, or will be soon.
        manigandham 6y ago
        The TSLA bonus is $700 million, not billion. That's less than 2% of his current net worth and changes nothing in his life. It seems the simplest explanation is that he really does care about the company and the people as evidenced by his continual investment into his ventures at the risk of bankrupting himself several times. And Elon is not alone in this, he's joined by millions across the state and country that want - and need - to open up to counter the economic disaster that will create far more suffering and chaos. It's an absolute fact that this virus is nowhere near as fatal as first thought in March. Everything has a cost and risks must be weighed. The 3rd leading cause of death in the US is medical errors, but we don't shut down hospitals because of it, do we? You're free to believe whoever you want and stay inside for your safety, but not everyone has that luxury as they face hunger, suicide, depression, overdoses, diseases, surgeries, domestic abuse and violence, and other life-altering stress that has nothing to do with covid19 and hasn't conveniently stopped because this virus came around. The people want choice, and I believe their freedom to make that choice is of utmost importance.
        rhizome 6y ago
        The "B" was obviously a typo. :) It seems the simplest explanation is that he really does care about the company and the people as evidenced by his continual investment into his ventures at the risk of bankrupting himself several times. His care "about the people" is belied by his inability or unwillingness to care for "the people" as the union he is fighting so bitterly would do. Perhaps he really dislikes unions because they take too good of care for their members? Not to put too fine a point on it, but I can think of another prominent American who is proudly waving their negligence at the nation. he's joined by millions across the state and country that want - and need - to open up to counter the economic disaster that will create far more suffering and chaos "Want" doesn't protect people against viruses. "Should Elon incur liability for this?" is a question I want to see discussed. To be sure, there is chatter in DC about giving employers immunity for this, but nobody other than the Chamber of Commerce will associate their name with it, so I assume politicians know it might be a damaging issue to get behind. But the virus is here, and again by force of personality this can't be changed. What people are clamoring for is some kind of a safety net, and they've been inculcated with the idea that a job is the only safety net they have, or can control. This is not the be-all end-all, because this is all the government's job, another aspect of the crisis in which they are being negligent (certainly the corporate 'stimulus' didn't involve complicated forms and crashing websites and time limits). Yes, hunger, suicide, depression, and all the rest are due to the hopelessness that an ineffectual government, what some are calling a failed state, is declining to provide in an emergency. $1200 is a pittance. The people want choice There is no "choice" in virus exposure, it is not available. It is not subject to politics nor policies. That people believe that it is, is a travesty and I'd say a crime against humanity for convincing people to act against their own interests where their life hangs in the balance. In the service of capitalism, all because people in power don't want to use the tax dollars we pay to provide a less suicidal environment for us with our own money, within which to endure an extended quarantine. So we can stay alive. Do you really think this should be portrayed as a luxury?
- dpoochieni 7y ago
  You meant "it's legal". Then you would have to concede that people should be able to do legal, unethical things. You may think Elon is a jackass, that does not mean he has to close his factory.
  - rhizome 7y ago
    There's no such thing as "unethical." Everybody has values and reasons why they do stuff. Other than that I don't understand your first two sentences. You're right that Elon being a jackass doesn't mean he has to close his factory, but at the same time it can be the reason why he wants to contravene public orders and policy to reopen it.
    - kd5bjo 7y ago
      > There's no such thing as "unethical." Everybody has values and reasons why they do stuff. I have values and reasons that guide my own actions. There’s a much larger space of values and reasoning that I personally don’t adhere to, but consider valid for other people to choose for themselves. Anyone acting according to values or reasoning that falls outside this space is behaving unethically in my view. Whether or not something is ethical depends both on the internal motivation of the actor and the beliefs of the observer, but it’s still a useful concept as long as the relevant people in this formulation are properly udentified. This variation makes it a shaky basis for law, which is a somewhat blunt instrument. It will inevitably allow some acts that some people view as unethical to go unpunished by the courts, and will probably disallow some acts that some people consider morally required: There’s too much variation in the personal beliefs of the populace for there to be a frontier that neatly encompasses all the guiding principles for their personal actions and also stays within the bounds of what people consider acceptable behavior from others.
      - rhizome 6y ago
        You're simply using the wrong (though popular) word. The "un" in unethical" means "without," not "different."[1] This is basic English (and Old High German, and Manx, and...). However, if your goal is to disregard and negate the basic intelligence and/or humanity of another person or group, then it might be the right word, but this path leads to some very bad places. >Whether or not something is ethical You eating a hamburger when I think meat is murder doesn't mean you don't have any ethics. >There’s too much variation in the personal beliefs of the populace for there to be a frontier that neatly encompasses all the guiding principles for their personal actions and also stays within the bounds of what people consider acceptable behavior from others. You're describing morality, AKA a shared set of ethics, and people have been fighting to establish their preferred morality on other people (AKA "stop doing that thing I don't want you to do") for as long as people have had shared identities. Everybody who had participated in that history has acted according to a set of ethics, but the way you use the word, whether one of those people has any ethics depends on what side you're on. Not true. I know I'm pissing in the wind here, but it's simply the wrong word to use. 1. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/un- https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/un-
dragonwriter 7y ago
> There is no law being broken here, it's local county orders with (currently debated) legal authority by a single official. The fact that someone has questioned legal authority does not mean there is no law being broken. The existence of “freemen of the land”-style tax objectors doesn't mean no law is broken when you fail to pay federal income tax.
- manigandham 6y ago
  It is a federal and state public health order. They've since changed those orders. The county has even less authority, especially by a single individual and in contrast to the state. Also laws only work as long as the citizens believe in them and civil obedience is a thing. There needs to be good reason for the shutdown and its effects, and many do not agree with the county.
  - dragonwriter 6y ago
    > It is a federal and state public health order. There has been no federal public health order (there's been a federal national defense order to keep meat plans open to promote the spread of the virus, but that's the opposite of a public health order), there are, relevant to the case at hand, state and county orders. > They've since changed those orders. Yes, both the state and county orders have been updated over time. What's your point? > The county has even less authority, especially by a single individual and in contrast to the state. No, actually, state law makes county public health officers the main authority to issue orders for the control of communicable disease. > Also laws only work as long as the citizens believe in them and civil obedience is a thing. Shutdown orders have overwhelming majority support; there is a very loud (predominantly elite) but small minority opposed.
    - manigandham 6y ago
      They've changed those orders to be more open. That's the point. This single county is disagreeing on flimsy reasoning. You're free to follow whatever law you think exists. Others have the right to counter orders they feel are unjust. Where do you see this overwhelming majority support? If that were true, there wouldn't be any news about so many violations of these lock-down orders. They would just be arrested and shutdown. But that's not happening is it?

rhizome 7y ago

"It's not illegal" is a shitty ethical basis.

manigandham 7y ago
Many other companies and factories are open, workers are not required to show up, and if they do they're following guidelines developed from the factory presence in China with thousands of unharmed employees. This is on top of most of the state being effectively open for weeks already. What is the ethical quandary here?
- rhizome 7y ago
  Let's start with, "respecting public policy."
  - manigandham 7y ago
    What if public policy - or single official's order in this case - is wrong and they disagree with good reason?
    - rhizome 6y ago
      "Is wrong." OK, and just by force of personality Elon establishes that? Since when is Elon an epidemiologist? Sounds like about as much as he's a underwater rescue expert and ventilator manufacturer. Take a step back, he's a troll juicing his stock price 80% of the time. Read elsewhere where he has a $700B bonus hanging in the balance here, and so how is that not the simplest explanation? There's your "good reason." I believe the people who say it's still unsafe. If you don't and want or need the work, I think they're hiring in Fremont, or will be soon.
      - manigandham 6y ago
        The TSLA bonus is $700 million, not billion. That's less than 2% of his current net worth and changes nothing in his life. It seems the simplest explanation is that he really does care about the company and the people as evidenced by his continual investment into his ventures at the risk of bankrupting himself several times. And Elon is not alone in this, he's joined by millions across the state and country that want - and need - to open up to counter the economic disaster that will create far more suffering and chaos. It's an absolute fact that this virus is nowhere near as fatal as first thought in March. Everything has a cost and risks must be weighed. The 3rd leading cause of death in the US is medical errors, but we don't shut down hospitals because of it, do we? You're free to believe whoever you want and stay inside for your safety, but not everyone has that luxury as they face hunger, suicide, depression, overdoses, diseases, surgeries, domestic abuse and violence, and other life-altering stress that has nothing to do with covid19 and hasn't conveniently stopped because this virus came around. The people want choice, and I believe their freedom to make that choice is of utmost importance.
        rhizome 6y ago
        The "B" was obviously a typo. :) It seems the simplest explanation is that he really does care about the company and the people as evidenced by his continual investment into his ventures at the risk of bankrupting himself several times. His care "about the people" is belied by his inability or unwillingness to care for "the people" as the union he is fighting so bitterly would do. Perhaps he really dislikes unions because they take too good of care for their members? Not to put too fine a point on it, but I can think of another prominent American who is proudly waving their negligence at the nation. he's joined by millions across the state and country that want - and need - to open up to counter the economic disaster that will create far more suffering and chaos "Want" doesn't protect people against viruses. "Should Elon incur liability for this?" is a question I want to see discussed. To be sure, there is chatter in DC about giving employers immunity for this, but nobody other than the Chamber of Commerce will associate their name with it, so I assume politicians know it might be a damaging issue to get behind. But the virus is here, and again by force of personality this can't be changed. What people are clamoring for is some kind of a safety net, and they've been inculcated with the idea that a job is the only safety net they have, or can control. This is not the be-all end-all, because this is all the government's job, another aspect of the crisis in which they are being negligent (certainly the corporate 'stimulus' didn't involve complicated forms and crashing websites and time limits). Yes, hunger, suicide, depression, and all the rest are due to the hopelessness that an ineffectual government, what some are calling a failed state, is declining to provide in an emergency. $1200 is a pittance. The people want choice There is no "choice" in virus exposure, it is not available. It is not subject to politics nor policies. That people believe that it is, is a travesty and I'd say a crime against humanity for convincing people to act against their own interests where their life hangs in the balance. In the service of capitalism, all because people in power don't want to use the tax dollars we pay to provide a less suicidal environment for us with our own money, within which to endure an extended quarantine. So we can stay alive. Do you really think this should be portrayed as a luxury?
dpoochieni 7y ago
You meant "it's legal". Then you would have to concede that people should be able to do legal, unethical things. You may think Elon is a jackass, that does not mean he has to close his factory.
- rhizome 7y ago
  There's no such thing as "unethical." Everybody has values and reasons why they do stuff. Other than that I don't understand your first two sentences. You're right that Elon being a jackass doesn't mean he has to close his factory, but at the same time it can be the reason why he wants to contravene public orders and policy to reopen it.
  - kd5bjo 7y ago
    > There's no such thing as "unethical." Everybody has values and reasons why they do stuff. I have values and reasons that guide my own actions. There’s a much larger space of values and reasoning that I personally don’t adhere to, but consider valid for other people to choose for themselves. Anyone acting according to values or reasoning that falls outside this space is behaving unethically in my view. Whether or not something is ethical depends both on the internal motivation of the actor and the beliefs of the observer, but it’s still a useful concept as long as the relevant people in this formulation are properly udentified. This variation makes it a shaky basis for law, which is a somewhat blunt instrument. It will inevitably allow some acts that some people view as unethical to go unpunished by the courts, and will probably disallow some acts that some people consider morally required: There’s too much variation in the personal beliefs of the populace for there to be a frontier that neatly encompasses all the guiding principles for their personal actions and also stays within the bounds of what people consider acceptable behavior from others.
    - rhizome 6y ago
      You're simply using the wrong (though popular) word. The "un" in unethical" means "without," not "different."[1] This is basic English (and Old High German, and Manx, and...). However, if your goal is to disregard and negate the basic intelligence and/or humanity of another person or group, then it might be the right word, but this path leads to some very bad places. >Whether or not something is ethical You eating a hamburger when I think meat is murder doesn't mean you don't have any ethics. >There’s too much variation in the personal beliefs of the populace for there to be a frontier that neatly encompasses all the guiding principles for their personal actions and also stays within the bounds of what people consider acceptable behavior from others. You're describing morality, AKA a shared set of ethics, and people have been fighting to establish their preferred morality on other people (AKA "stop doing that thing I don't want you to do") for as long as people have had shared identities. Everybody who had participated in that history has acted according to a set of ethics, but the way you use the word, whether one of those people has any ethics depends on what side you're on. Not true. I know I'm pissing in the wind here, but it's simply the wrong word to use. 1. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/un- https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/un-

dragonwriter 7y ago

> There is no law being broken here, it's local county orders with (currently debated) legal authority by a single official. The fact that someone has questioned legal authority does not mean there is no law being broken. The existence of “freemen of the land”-style tax objectors doesn't mean no law is broken when you fail to pay federal income tax.

manigandham 6y ago
It is a federal and state public health order. They've since changed those orders. The county has even less authority, especially by a single individual and in contrast to the state. Also laws only work as long as the citizens believe in them and civil obedience is a thing. There needs to be good reason for the shutdown and its effects, and many do not agree with the county.
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  > It is a federal and state public health order. There has been no federal public health order (there's been a federal national defense order to keep meat plans open to promote the spread of the virus, but that's the opposite of a public health order), there are, relevant to the case at hand, state and county orders. > They've since changed those orders. Yes, both the state and county orders have been updated over time. What's your point? > The county has even less authority, especially by a single individual and in contrast to the state. No, actually, state law makes county public health officers the main authority to issue orders for the control of communicable disease. > Also laws only work as long as the citizens believe in them and civil obedience is a thing. Shutdown orders have overwhelming majority support; there is a very loud (predominantly elite) but small minority opposed.
  - manigandham 6y ago
    They've changed those orders to be more open. That's the point. This single county is disagreeing on flimsy reasoning. You're free to follow whatever law you think exists. Others have the right to counter orders they feel are unjust. Where do you see this overwhelming majority support? If that were true, there wouldn't be any news about so many violations of these lock-down orders. They would just be arrested and shutdown. But that's not happening is it?