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I think you're making a massive mistake comparing 'the US' and China for a whole number of reasons. Firstly, The US has 246 deaths per million people, New York

I think you're making a massive mistake comparing 'the US' and China for a whole number of reasons. Firstly, The US has 246 deaths per million people, New York has 1381 deaths per million, California has 69 deaths per million people. So if we're actually staying on topic of the California plant, actually California is an example of the US doing relatively well. And the reason they're doing well is because of their stringent lock down rules. In fact California probably is doing better than China did in reality - because China's deaths per million is stated as 58 and that's clearly a number no one really beleives. Secondly you need to think about the fact that Musk is going ballistic about the US being a totalitarian state- and we're meant to be looking at China as the comparison? Really? I'd love to see a Chinese CEO make statements about the Chinese government like Musk makes about the US. Finally, the government isn't even saying that Tesla shouldn't reopen the plant, they're just working on making sure they're doing it safely. And you should be listening to the government about this, because it's been pretty conclusively demonstrated by Musk that he can't be trusted on this topic.

rogerkirkness 6y ago
The government is not arguing for safety, they're arguing for their own ability to spend more. It has nothing to do with safety. Tesla cares more about safety than the government does by a mile. Shutting everything down is not going to impact the long term difference in disease outcomes unless you can track, trace and isolate every care. California shot themselves in the head economically and won't protect people long term, they'll just delay it until next winter. NY rounds up to herd immunity, California is one economy destroying lockdown into a series of the number required to actually work.
credit_guy 6y ago
> China's deaths per million is stated as 58 and that's clearly a number no one really believes. China's Covid19 deaths per 1 million is actually 3, not 58. As of today, 4633 deaths for a population of 1.4 BN. Maybe that's manipulated, but it's hard to believe they are hiding 95% of the deaths. So, yes, in the matter of Covid19, we should better look at China as the comparison. Did you see drones checking if people are wearing masks? Did you see temperature checks when people enter various buildings. Photos where absolutely everybody is wearing a mask, fully covering their nose (not like in the US where they wear it under their chin many times). Rapid testing, people being escorted to a quarantine center, etc, etc. Now, I am not arguing in favor or Tesla resuming production. I don't know much about this to have an opinion. But strictly on the topic whether we should admire the Chinese response to the Covid19 infection, I think we should give credit where credit is due.
- bananabreakfast 6y ago
  Great idea! China gets all the credit for: - Producing this virus in a meat market that should be illegal - Failing to contain it properly - lying about its existence - strong-arming the WHO - silencing doctors and censoring reports - expelling all foreign journalists - invasively tracking location and activity of all citizens - withholding PPE and ventilators from export to the US ...do I have to keep going?
  - credit_guy 6y ago
    I'm not sure I understand your tone. China should be criticized for the things it did wrong and it should be given credit for the things it did right. China failed to contain it. But they did contain SARS in 2002. With Covid19, and after initially mishandling the situation, they imposed some draconian lockdown measures. Why did they initially mishandle the situation, why the cover-up, etc? Because China is a country of 1.4 BN people, with immense government complexities. It's not perfect. So, yes there was some censure going on, strong-arming, location tracking, welcome to the world. Overall, if you were to give China a grade between 1 and 10 what number would you choose? What's US's number? I personally would give China something like 6 or 7 or 8, and the US something like 3. In the end people's lives matter. And the count right now for the US is 80000. And it's not stopping here.
    - appleiigs 6y ago
      How well China did in 2002 is irrelevant. Saying they have immense govt complexity is an excuse. Comparing to US is irrelevant. Why don’t you compare to China’s neighbours such as S. Korea and Taiwan. Start at 10 and take 1 point off China’s score for each of bananabreakfast’s points. Banana didn't mention continuing to lie about the their infection rates, so that’s another point off.
      - credit_guy 6y ago
        > Why don’t you compare to China’s neighbours such as S. Korea and Taiwan? S. Korea and Taiwan handled the Covid19 situation much better than China. Much better than everyone else. When Musk is criticized for being upbeat about China, the implicit comparison it with the US though. In this context, the comparison with the US is not irrelevant at all. > Start at 10 and take 1 point off China’s score for each of bananabreakfast’s points. Starting at 10, you can indeed take points from China's score. 1 for each of those points is a bit too much. If your goal is simply to win an argument and get to negative score, I guess you can do that. If you want to do an objective assessment, you do add points for the low number of total deaths. A lot of points. In the US we had the debacle of the tests, the PPE's, the "masks are useless", the "it's safe to travel by plane", the "I don't personally go on cruises, but if you do, it's safe" , etc, etc. And lots of deaths.
syshum 6y ago
>>And the reason they're doing well is because of their stringent lock down rules. There are a many of reasons why CA may be doing better than NYC, down to the type of housing, type of public transport, the weather, and 100's of other factors unrelated to the lockdown it is far far far from certain that the locked played the key role. Governments like to say that to justify their actions, and secure their authority for their future response it is very dangerous to just cede that fact to them with out debate or analysis of data >>And you should be listening to the government about this, because it's been pretty conclusively demonstrated by Musk that he can't be trusted on this topic. Why government has been routinely wrong on many fronts, including the CA Government. Why should I blindly listen to either government or Musk? >>Finally, the government isn't even saying that Tesla shouldn't reopen the plant, they're just working on making sure they're doing it safely. I think it naive to believe the government is purely altruistic and are only thinking about the "health and safety of the people" Just like there are number of reasons why CA is doing better than NYC, there is an equal number of reasons why the Local Health authorities may want to delay Tesla that have nothing to do with the health and safety inside that plant

rogerkirkness 6y ago

The government is not arguing for safety, they're arguing for their own ability to spend more. It has nothing to do with safety. Tesla cares more about safety than the government does by a mile. Shutting everything down is not going to impact the long term difference in disease outcomes unless you can track, trace and isolate every care. California shot themselves in the head economically and won't protect people long term, they'll just delay it until next winter. NY rounds up to herd immunity, California is one economy destroying lockdown into a series of the number required to actually work.

credit_guy 6y ago

> China's deaths per million is stated as 58 and that's clearly a number no one really believes. China's Covid19 deaths per 1 million is actually 3, not 58. As of today, 4633 deaths for a population of 1.4 BN. Maybe that's manipulated, but it's hard to believe they are hiding 95% of the deaths. So, yes, in the matter of Covid19, we should better look at China as the comparison. Did you see drones checking if people are wearing masks? Did you see temperature checks when people enter various buildings. Photos where absolutely everybody is wearing a mask, fully covering their nose (not like in the US where they wear it under their chin many times). Rapid testing, people being escorted to a quarantine center, etc, etc. Now, I am not arguing in favor or Tesla resuming production. I don't know much about this to have an opinion. But strictly on the topic whether we should admire the Chinese response to the Covid19 infection, I think we should give credit where credit is due.

bananabreakfast 6y ago
Great idea! China gets all the credit for: - Producing this virus in a meat market that should be illegal - Failing to contain it properly - lying about its existence - strong-arming the WHO - silencing doctors and censoring reports - expelling all foreign journalists - invasively tracking location and activity of all citizens - withholding PPE and ventilators from export to the US ...do I have to keep going?
- credit_guy 6y ago
  I'm not sure I understand your tone. China should be criticized for the things it did wrong and it should be given credit for the things it did right. China failed to contain it. But they did contain SARS in 2002. With Covid19, and after initially mishandling the situation, they imposed some draconian lockdown measures. Why did they initially mishandle the situation, why the cover-up, etc? Because China is a country of 1.4 BN people, with immense government complexities. It's not perfect. So, yes there was some censure going on, strong-arming, location tracking, welcome to the world. Overall, if you were to give China a grade between 1 and 10 what number would you choose? What's US's number? I personally would give China something like 6 or 7 or 8, and the US something like 3. In the end people's lives matter. And the count right now for the US is 80000. And it's not stopping here.
  - appleiigs 6y ago
    How well China did in 2002 is irrelevant. Saying they have immense govt complexity is an excuse. Comparing to US is irrelevant. Why don’t you compare to China’s neighbours such as S. Korea and Taiwan. Start at 10 and take 1 point off China’s score for each of bananabreakfast’s points. Banana didn't mention continuing to lie about the their infection rates, so that’s another point off.
    - credit_guy 6y ago
      > Why don’t you compare to China’s neighbours such as S. Korea and Taiwan? S. Korea and Taiwan handled the Covid19 situation much better than China. Much better than everyone else. When Musk is criticized for being upbeat about China, the implicit comparison it with the US though. In this context, the comparison with the US is not irrelevant at all. > Start at 10 and take 1 point off China’s score for each of bananabreakfast’s points. Starting at 10, you can indeed take points from China's score. 1 for each of those points is a bit too much. If your goal is simply to win an argument and get to negative score, I guess you can do that. If you want to do an objective assessment, you do add points for the low number of total deaths. A lot of points. In the US we had the debacle of the tests, the PPE's, the "masks are useless", the "it's safe to travel by plane", the "I don't personally go on cruises, but if you do, it's safe" , etc, etc. And lots of deaths.

syshum 6y ago

>>And the reason they're doing well is because of their stringent lock down rules. There are a many of reasons why CA may be doing better than NYC, down to the type of housing, type of public transport, the weather, and 100's of other factors unrelated to the lockdown it is far far far from certain that the locked played the key role. Governments like to say that to justify their actions, and secure their authority for their future response it is very dangerous to just cede that fact to them with out debate or analysis of data >>And you should be listening to the government about this, because it's been pretty conclusively demonstrated by Musk that he can't be trusted on this topic. Why government has been routinely wrong on many fronts, including the CA Government. Why should I blindly listen to either government or Musk? >>Finally, the government isn't even saying that Tesla shouldn't reopen the plant, they're just working on making sure they're doing it safely. I think it naive to believe the government is purely altruistic and are only thinking about the "health and safety of the people" Just like there are number of reasons why CA is doing better than NYC, there is an equal number of reasons why the Local Health authorities may want to delay Tesla that have nothing to do with the health and safety inside that plant