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So... can anyone here say that these EEG headsets actually work and do something practical? How does it compare to OpenBCI, which has 2 times the number of sens

So... can anyone here say that these EEG headsets actually work and do something practical? How does it compare to OpenBCI, which has 2 times the number of sensors?

tdubhro1 6y ago
Running a PCA on data from 64 node (wet contact, shaved head, lab environment), shows that you basically get one channel of data, there’s virtually zero useful information other than the main wave; you can tell whether the subject is asleep, awake or having a fit with high degree of accuracy, you can accurately classify whether the awake subject is relaxed vs aroused but that’s about it. The claims made for these systems are way beyond anything supported by the data. Would love to be proved wrong by standard, verifiable sourced data and a Jupyter notebook, but I won’t hold my breath.
- dr_dshiv 6y ago
  Please, someone, please refute this. Please, please let the situation be better than this.
  - breuderink 6y ago
    While it is difficult to get a useful signal out of EEG, a PCA doesn't show that there is only one 'channel'. A lot of interesting signals have very low power. With multiple EEG sensors, one can focus on smaller spatial regions.
- Amolnar 6y ago
  @Tduhbro A quick google scholar can point you to a ton of material. I recommend https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3304110/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3304110/ PubMed Central (PMC)PubMed Central (PMC) Brain Computer Interfaces, a Review - A review that covers different BCI modalities and their performances. Also I’d recommend using ICA and Loretta through EEG lab to help with any analysis. It will help you identify far more significant signals. https://sccn.ucsd.edu/eeglab/index.php https://sccn.ucsd.edu/eeglab/index.php sccn.ucsd.edusccn.ucsd.edu If you want more information, check out Neurable (feel free to reach out!) on social media (#selflessplug) and the NeuroTechX organization :)
  - TomMarius 6y ago
    > If you want more information, check out Neurable (feel free to reach out!) What capabilities on top of what GP said are possible?
    - Amolnar 6y ago
      Neurable is known for their ERP detection, especially with the p300 as well as cognitive state measures.
      - TomMarius 6y ago
        I am sorry, but I don't know what that means. Does it mean it is able to determine emotions? Or how focused a person is? Can I control a computer with it somehow, perhaps more than very simple motion? Can it determine words I though of? What are the differences compared to OpenBCI and why is less (sensors) more? I am a practical guy interested in practical things.
        Amolnar 6y ago
        In regards to human-computer interaction (how we interact and communicate with computers), check out this presentation: https://events.technologyreview.com/video/watch/ramses-alcaide-neurable-mind-controlled-vr/ https://events.technologyreview.com/video/watch/ramses-alcai... Emotion is a tricky term because there are so many things that affect and shape one's "emotional state." At Neurable, we measure aspects of emotional spectrum (i.e. specific cognitive states, like focus). More information to come in the near future :) Re sensors, more sensors add the possibility for more data, which is often used to take higher quality measurements. Neurable uses high quality sensors combined with special algorithms to make sense of the "not so good" data to do what others might need more data to get as clear, or even, a more clear picture.
- omeze 6y ago
  I have 0 brain HCI experience but can’t you take that 2 or 3 bits of information and then use time multiplexing to encode more signals? Eg if I can reliably switch between relaxed and angry at a rate of 100ms I get 2x the bandwidth every 200ms
- yodon 6y ago
  Was this data you collected, or heard about from friends, or ?
Sir_Substance 6y ago
I can't speak for this one, I gave the OCZ NIA a spin when it was released probably more than a decade ago now, and what I found was that mostly it picked up the electrical interference from all the low quality DC transformer plugpacks that powered all my monitors and chargers etc. I'm not sure that "machine learning driven signal processing" is going to be enough to screen out the dirty EM environment you're gonna find in most peoples houses and offices. I do wish these guys best of luck though, it's an interesting field.

So... can anyone here say that these EEG headsets actually work and do something practical? How does it compare to OpenBCI, which has 2 times the number of sensors?

tdubhro1 6y ago

Running a PCA on data from 64 node (wet contact, shaved head, lab environment), shows that you basically get one channel of data, there’s virtually zero useful information other than the main wave; you can tell whether the subject is asleep, awake or having a fit with high degree of accuracy, you can accurately classify whether the awake subject is relaxed vs aroused but that’s about it. The claims made for these systems are way beyond anything supported by the data. Would love to be proved wrong by standard, verifiable sourced data and a Jupyter notebook, but I won’t hold my breath.

dr_dshiv 6y ago
Please, someone, please refute this. Please, please let the situation be better than this.
- breuderink 6y ago
  While it is difficult to get a useful signal out of EEG, a PCA doesn't show that there is only one 'channel'. A lot of interesting signals have very low power. With multiple EEG sensors, one can focus on smaller spatial regions.
Amolnar 6y ago
@Tduhbro A quick google scholar can point you to a ton of material. I recommend https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3304110/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3304110/ PubMed Central (PMC)PubMed Central (PMC) Brain Computer Interfaces, a Review - A review that covers different BCI modalities and their performances. Also I’d recommend using ICA and Loretta through EEG lab to help with any analysis. It will help you identify far more significant signals. https://sccn.ucsd.edu/eeglab/index.php https://sccn.ucsd.edu/eeglab/index.php sccn.ucsd.edusccn.ucsd.edu If you want more information, check out Neurable (feel free to reach out!) on social media (#selflessplug) and the NeuroTechX organization :)
- TomMarius 6y ago
  > If you want more information, check out Neurable (feel free to reach out!) What capabilities on top of what GP said are possible?
  - Amolnar 6y ago
    Neurable is known for their ERP detection, especially with the p300 as well as cognitive state measures.
    - TomMarius 6y ago
      I am sorry, but I don't know what that means. Does it mean it is able to determine emotions? Or how focused a person is? Can I control a computer with it somehow, perhaps more than very simple motion? Can it determine words I though of? What are the differences compared to OpenBCI and why is less (sensors) more? I am a practical guy interested in practical things.
      - Amolnar 6y ago
        In regards to human-computer interaction (how we interact and communicate with computers), check out this presentation: https://events.technologyreview.com/video/watch/ramses-alcaide-neurable-mind-controlled-vr/ https://events.technologyreview.com/video/watch/ramses-alcai... Emotion is a tricky term because there are so many things that affect and shape one's "emotional state." At Neurable, we measure aspects of emotional spectrum (i.e. specific cognitive states, like focus). More information to come in the near future :) Re sensors, more sensors add the possibility for more data, which is often used to take higher quality measurements. Neurable uses high quality sensors combined with special algorithms to make sense of the "not so good" data to do what others might need more data to get as clear, or even, a more clear picture.
omeze 6y ago
I have 0 brain HCI experience but can’t you take that 2 or 3 bits of information and then use time multiplexing to encode more signals? Eg if I can reliably switch between relaxed and angry at a rate of 100ms I get 2x the bandwidth every 200ms
yodon 6y ago
Was this data you collected, or heard about from friends, or ?

Sir_Substance 6y ago

I can't speak for this one, I gave the OCZ NIA a spin when it was released probably more than a decade ago now, and what I found was that mostly it picked up the electrical interference from all the low quality DC transformer plugpacks that powered all my monitors and chargers etc. I'm not sure that "machine learning driven signal processing" is going to be enough to screen out the dirty EM environment you're gonna find in most peoples houses and offices. I do wish these guys best of luck though, it's an interesting field.