5 ms·

> Additionally, there might be time pressures, political pressures, engineering constraints, access problems, and more. All of those (except possibly "engineer

by ken 6y ago

> Additionally, there might be time pressures, political pressures, engineering constraints, access problems, and more. All of those (except possibly "engineering constraints") are merely excuses for why it ended up being garbage, not reasons why it's not garbage. This conversation goes both ways. When someone calls my work garbage, I can sit there and try to come up with excuses, or I can say "yes it is!" and we can move on towards a solution. Just because someone takes a swing doesn't mean you need to fight them. Curiously, I only see the author's response in software. In every other field I've worked in, an experienced person is free to call something garbage (or worse), and the recipient of this criticism is expected to not waste everyone's time by making excuses. You'd think the internet would give us a thicker skin, not a thinner one.

6510 6y ago
This is really about maturity I think? With children we do something like: thoughts > filter > communication > thoughts With grown ups it should work like: thoughts > communication > filter > thoughts You want the full spectrum of gradients of terribility. If I wrote a "steaming pile of crap" I don't want to hear "it is not very good". "not very good" is reserved for things that are "not very good". food half frozen != under cooked The alternative is teaching people not to give you feedback because you are emotional unstable and might take it the wrong way. Just because someone is a dick doesn't mean they are wrong. You have to adjust for their lack of social skills. You want to own the filter, don't require others to maintain it for you. That is a terrible idea! To them the trash talk is treasure.
- goto11 6y ago
  > If I wrote a "steaming pile of crap" I don't want to hear "it is not very good". I don't see how either statement is of any use for you?
  - 6510 6y ago
    With the first I want to know why immediately with the later I will eventually ask for clarification. It is also an invitation for critical examination. I do some accounting for who says what. How much they normally complaint? How often are they right? How do they deal with similar feedback? There is this hilarious place few get to visit where everyone is complaining about everything all of the time while the mood is just wonderful. The work delivered is of exceptional quality.
goto11 6y ago
You turn this into a question about "having thick skin" or "making excuses". But the article is not at all about how the receiver is supposed the take the criticism, the point is that shallow dismissals (like "garbage") typically indicate the critic does not understand the full picture.
BeetleB 6y ago
> When someone calls my work garbage, I can sit there and try to come up with excuses, or I can say "yes it is!" and we can move on towards a solution. When someone calls my work garbage, but isn't willing to sit and discuss what is garbage about it, nor willing to discuss the cost of fixing it, I will ignore him/her. Talk is cheap. It's trivial for someone to come up with a surface reason to complain. It's harder to take all factors into account. I was once doing a project where I was solving something in a brute force, inefficient way, but it was simple to code and we had the computer time available. One developer kept loudly complaining in meetings about how crappy and dumb my method was. I finally set up a meeting with him and asked him how we would do it. His solution was far more efficient, but would also take up to a week to implement. I asked "Given our deadline, do you think it is worth losing a week of computer time to implement your method?" He thought about it and said "No, my method won't make up for the time lost." If you're not willing to sit in the trenches with me, your feedback will have lower weight. I'm in the business of solving problems, not in the business of perfection. At some level, my software is always going to be garbage. You want it not to be? You better have a stake in the outcome, then.

by ken 6y ago

6510 6y ago

This is really about maturity I think? With children we do something like: thoughts > filter > communication > thoughts With grown ups it should work like: thoughts > communication > filter > thoughts You want the full spectrum of gradients of terribility. If I wrote a "steaming pile of crap" I don't want to hear "it is not very good". "not very good" is reserved for things that are "not very good". food half frozen != under cooked The alternative is teaching people not to give you feedback because you are emotional unstable and might take it the wrong way. Just because someone is a dick doesn't mean they are wrong. You have to adjust for their lack of social skills. You want to own the filter, don't require others to maintain it for you. That is a terrible idea! To them the trash talk is treasure.

goto11 6y ago
> If I wrote a "steaming pile of crap" I don't want to hear "it is not very good". I don't see how either statement is of any use for you?
- 6510 6y ago
  With the first I want to know why immediately with the later I will eventually ask for clarification. It is also an invitation for critical examination. I do some accounting for who says what. How much they normally complaint? How often are they right? How do they deal with similar feedback? There is this hilarious place few get to visit where everyone is complaining about everything all of the time while the mood is just wonderful. The work delivered is of exceptional quality.

goto11 6y ago

You turn this into a question about "having thick skin" or "making excuses". But the article is not at all about how the receiver is supposed the take the criticism, the point is that shallow dismissals (like "garbage") typically indicate the critic does not understand the full picture.

BeetleB 6y ago

> When someone calls my work garbage, I can sit there and try to come up with excuses, or I can say "yes it is!" and we can move on towards a solution. When someone calls my work garbage, but isn't willing to sit and discuss what is garbage about it, nor willing to discuss the cost of fixing it, I will ignore him/her. Talk is cheap. It's trivial for someone to come up with a surface reason to complain. It's harder to take all factors into account. I was once doing a project where I was solving something in a brute force, inefficient way, but it was simple to code and we had the computer time available. One developer kept loudly complaining in meetings about how crappy and dumb my method was. I finally set up a meeting with him and asked him how we would do it. His solution was far more efficient, but would also take up to a week to implement. I asked "Given our deadline, do you think it is worth losing a week of computer time to implement your method?" He thought about it and said "No, my method won't make up for the time lost." If you're not willing to sit in the trenches with me, your feedback will have lower weight. I'm in the business of solving problems, not in the business of perfection. At some level, my software is always going to be garbage. You want it not to be? You better have a stake in the outcome, then.