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Most every other developed nation has greater social mobility than the US [1]. Why can't the US reach Scandinavian levels of social mobility? [1] https://marke

by 2019-nCoV 6y ago

Most every other developed nation has greater social mobility than the US [1]. Why can't the US reach Scandinavian levels of social mobility? [1] https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/stocks/ranked-the-social-mobility-of-82-countries-1028885766 https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/stocks/ranked-the-s...

Consultant32452 6y ago
A full explanation is too complicated for a single post. But here's two good starters. https://wtfhappenedin1971.com/ https://wtfhappenedin1971.com/ https://www.ineteconomics.org/perspectives/blog/how-why-government-universities-industry-create-domestic-labor-shortages-of-scientists-high-tech-workers https://www.ineteconomics.org/perspectives/blog/how-why-gove... Now that we've addressed your off topic question. Could you please try to explain how hard work and a sense of opportunity is not available to the common person?
marcusverus 6y ago
Advocates of big government love these metrics that have been put through the academic ringer, so-as to spit out whatever tortured output is expected. Why look at this kind of esoteric figure at all? Why not look at, you know, real numbers? Spending as percentage of GDP: Denmark - 52% of GDP Norway - 55% of GDP Finland - 53% of GDP Sweden - 50% of GDP Iceland - 42% of GDP Average - 50.5% USA - 22% of GDP What does all that extra spending get them? Poverty rates: [0] Denmark - 13% Norway - Not reported Finland - Not reported Sweden - 15% Iceland - Not reported USA - 15% Unemployment rates (2017): [0] Denmark - 5.7 Norway - 4.2 Finland - 8.5 Sweden - 6.7 Iceland - 2.8 USA - 4.4 Household Incomein US dollars (2018) [3] Denmark - $34,712 Norway - $39,555 Finland - $34,497 Sweden - $34,301 Iceland - Not reported USA - $50,292 Household Debt as % of disposable income (2015-2018): [1] Denmark - 281% Norway - 239% Finland - 145% Sweden - 189% Iceland - Not reported USA - 105% Household Net worth as % of net income (2014): [2] Denmark - 553% Norway - 318% Finland - 359% Sweden - 526% Iceland - Not reported USA - 601% [0]https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook [1]https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-debt.htm https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-debt.htm [2]https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-net-worth.htm#indicator-chart https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-net-worth.htm#indicator-... [3]https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-disposable-income.htm#indicator-chart https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-disposable-income.htm#in...
- ollifi 6y ago
  Interesting numbers. Where are the spending per GDP from? IMF numbers in Wikipedia put US spending at 35%. Also should comparing the spending numbers take into account that healthcare, schools and universities are paid by government spending in the Nordics and not from household income? Honest questions, I'm really interested in these differences between systems.
  - marcusverus 6y ago
    Ah, I forgot to add the citation on that line. The spending numbers come from the CIA World Factbook site, [0] above. Your number likely includes State, Regional, and Local spending (which was presumably excluded for all nations in my numbers). Even with the 33% figure, for the US to make up the ~15% difference would require ~3 Trillion in annual spending. The existence of Social Healthcare programs in those countries is a huge chunk of the difference, I'm sure.
- Joof 6y ago
  Okay, but are they worse off because they can't afford as much stuff? They don't seem to be in more poverty, they're healthier, more fit and highly educated. I can spend an extra 20k as well or poorly as I like.
  - marcusverus 6y ago
    That 'extra 20K' of income is easy to sneeze at for the affluent, but it means that Americans have ~40% more disposable income. That's huge. > They don't seem to be in more poverty They're clearly not 'more in poverty'. The point is that they spend (the US equivalent) of Trillions of dollars per year for comparable outcomes. >They're healthier, more fit and highly educated. This is a matter of culture, not economics. The US already spends more per pupil than all of the 'top 5' nations, with worse outcomes. [0] [0]https://data.oecd.org/eduresource/education-spending.htm https://data.oecd.org/eduresource/education-spending.htm
    - Joof 6y ago

Consultant32452 6y ago

A full explanation is too complicated for a single post. But here's two good starters. https://wtfhappenedin1971.com/ https://wtfhappenedin1971.com/ https://www.ineteconomics.org/perspectives/blog/how-why-government-universities-industry-create-domestic-labor-shortages-of-scientists-high-tech-workers https://www.ineteconomics.org/perspectives/blog/how-why-gove... Now that we've addressed your off topic question. Could you please try to explain how hard work and a sense of opportunity is not available to the common person?

marcusverus 6y ago

Advocates of big government love these metrics that have been put through the academic ringer, so-as to spit out whatever tortured output is expected. Why look at this kind of esoteric figure at all? Why not look at, you know, real numbers? Spending as percentage of GDP: Denmark - 52% of GDP Norway - 55% of GDP Finland - 53% of GDP Sweden - 50% of GDP Iceland - 42% of GDP Average - 50.5% USA - 22% of GDP What does all that extra spending get them? Poverty rates: [0] Denmark - 13% Norway - Not reported Finland - Not reported Sweden - 15% Iceland - Not reported USA - 15% Unemployment rates (2017): [0] Denmark - 5.7 Norway - 4.2 Finland - 8.5 Sweden - 6.7 Iceland - 2.8 USA - 4.4 Household Incomein US dollars (2018) [3] Denmark - $34,712 Norway - $39,555 Finland - $34,497 Sweden - $34,301 Iceland - Not reported USA - $50,292 Household Debt as % of disposable income (2015-2018): [1] Denmark - 281% Norway - 239% Finland - 145% Sweden - 189% Iceland - Not reported USA - 105% Household Net worth as % of net income (2014): [2] Denmark - 553% Norway - 318% Finland - 359% Sweden - 526% Iceland - Not reported USA - 601% [0]https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook [1]https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-debt.htm https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-debt.htm [2]https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-net-worth.htm#indicator-chart https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-net-worth.htm#indicator-... [3]https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-disposable-income.htm#indicator-chart https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-disposable-income.htm#in...

ollifi 6y ago
Interesting numbers. Where are the spending per GDP from? IMF numbers in Wikipedia put US spending at 35%. Also should comparing the spending numbers take into account that healthcare, schools and universities are paid by government spending in the Nordics and not from household income? Honest questions, I'm really interested in these differences between systems.
- marcusverus 6y ago
  Ah, I forgot to add the citation on that line. The spending numbers come from the CIA World Factbook site, [0] above. Your number likely includes State, Regional, and Local spending (which was presumably excluded for all nations in my numbers). Even with the 33% figure, for the US to make up the ~15% difference would require ~3 Trillion in annual spending. The existence of Social Healthcare programs in those countries is a huge chunk of the difference, I'm sure.
Joof 6y ago
Okay, but are they worse off because they can't afford as much stuff? They don't seem to be in more poverty, they're healthier, more fit and highly educated. I can spend an extra 20k as well or poorly as I like.
- marcusverus 6y ago
  That 'extra 20K' of income is easy to sneeze at for the affluent, but it means that Americans have ~40% more disposable income. That's huge. > They don't seem to be in more poverty They're clearly not 'more in poverty'. The point is that they spend (the US equivalent) of Trillions of dollars per year for comparable outcomes. >They're healthier, more fit and highly educated. This is a matter of culture, not economics. The US already spends more per pupil than all of the 'top 5' nations, with worse outcomes. [0] [0]https://data.oecd.org/eduresource/education-spending.htm https://data.oecd.org/eduresource/education-spending.htm
  - Joof 6y ago