5 ms·

How many blue collar millionaires do you know? My two anecdotes are one guy who opened a machine shop with his dad in their very lower middle class garage and

How many blue collar millionaires do you know? My two anecdotes are one guy who opened a machine shop with his dad in their very lower middle class garage and one guy who worked his way up to having a few taco bell franchises from the bottom rung. If you don't know those kinds of millionaires, your perception of the world might be tinted by being in a career path that is popular for a certain category of children of wealthy families.

coliveira 6y ago
The issue is not that these cases exist, but that they are sold as being the standard, which they're clearly not. To became wealthy coming from a poor background requires a lot of effort, sense of opportunity, and frankly, luck. But all this is sold as something at grasp to anyone in this country, which is clearly false.
- Consultant32452 6y ago
  Of course luck plays a role in everything. It's merely luck that I've never been run over by a bus, or any number of other problems. But can you help me understand how a lot of effort and a sense of opportunity is not available to the common person?
  - 2019-nCoV 6y ago
    42% of children born to parents in the bottom fifth of the income distribution ("quintile") remain in the bottom, while 39% born to parents in the top fifth remain at the top.
    - Consultant32452 6y ago
      Okay, more than half of the people at the bottom rise up out of it. And less than half of the people at the top stay at the top. What are you hoping for? Please be as specific as possible. And what does this have to do with whether a lot of effort and a sense of opportunity is available to the common person?
      - 2019-nCoV 6y ago
        Most every other developed nation has greater social mobility than the US [1]. Why can't the US reach Scandinavian levels of social mobility? [1] https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/stocks/ranked-the-social-mobility-of-82-countries-1028885766 https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/stocks/ranked-the-s...
        Consultant32452 6y ago
        A full explanation is too complicated for a single post. But here's two good starters. https://wtfhappenedin1971.com/ https://wtfhappenedin1971.com/ https://www.ineteconomics.org/perspectives/blog/how-why-government-universities-industry-create-domestic-labor-shortages-of-scientists-high-tech-workers https://www.ineteconomics.org/perspectives/blog/how-why-gove... Now that we've addressed your off topic question. Could you please try to explain how hard work and a sense of opportunity is not available to the common person?
        marcusverus 6y ago
        Advocates of big government love these metrics that have been put through the academic ringer, so-as to spit out whatever tortured output is expected. Why look at this kind of esoteric figure at all? Why not look at, you know, real numbers? Spending as percentage of GDP: Denmark - 52% of GDP Norway - 55% of GDP Finland - 53% of GDP Sweden - 50% of GDP Iceland - 42% of GDP Average - 50.5% USA - 22% of GDP What does all that extra spending get them? Poverty rates: [0] Denmark - 13% Norway - Not reported Finland - Not reported Sweden - 15% Iceland - Not reported USA - 15% Unemployment rates (2017): [0] Denmark - 5.7 Norway - 4.2 Finland - 8.5 Sweden - 6.7 Iceland - 2.8 USA - 4.4 Household Incomein US dollars (2018) [3] Denmark - $34,712 Norway - $39,555 Finland - $34,497 Sweden - $34,301 Iceland - Not reported USA - $50,292 Household Debt as % of disposable income (2015-2018): [1] Denmark - 281% Norway - 239% Finland - 145% Sweden - 189% Iceland - Not reported USA - 105% Household Net worth as % of net income (2014): [2] Denmark - 553% Norway - 318% Finland - 359% Sweden - 526% Iceland - Not reported USA - 601% [0]https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook [1]https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-debt.htm https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-debt.htm [2]https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-net-worth.htm#indicator-chart https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-net-worth.htm#indicator-... [3]https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-disposable-income.htm#indicator-chart https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-disposable-income.htm#in...
    - WalterBright 6y ago
      Or 58% born in the bottom fifth move up, and 61% born in the top fifth fall down.
  - tinco 6y ago
    It's the classic Trump small loan of a million dollars scenario. Sure not many are as lucky as Trump was. But even t hese examples of blue collar success have a bunch of luck in them. Not everyone can start a machine shop with their dad, or own or even operate a taco restaurant. You need to be at the right place, the right moment, have the right amount of money and or the right equipment, interests and skills. And only then your sense of opportunity and effort will take you places. For the common person it's a lottery just to be allowed to play the game.
    - Consultant32452 6y ago
      For the common person it's a lottery just to be allowed to work at Taco Bell and do what the Taco Bell handbook tells you? And then, once you become a manager to save your pennies until you have a down payment on your own store? Gimme a break man.
      - folkhack 6y ago
        How many people do you think working the counter FT at Taco Smell can save enough money to afford their own franchise location? > The cost of opening a new Taco Bell restaurant is between $1.2 million and $2.6 million. Taco Bell also charges a $45,000 franchise fee, an ongoing royalty fee equal to 5.5% of gross sales, and a marketing fee equal to 4.25% of gross sales. https://www.businessinsider.com/what-it-costs-to-open-a-taco-bell-2014-11 https://www.businessinsider.com/what-it-costs-to-open-a-taco... Give ME a break man. LOL.
        Consultant32452 6y ago
        I expect about 0% of people to go from the bottom level position at Taco Bell directly to owning one. But I'm sure you're smart enough to have known that. So why did you feel it would be useful to frame the scenario in such a disingenuous way?
        folkhack 6y ago
        I am 100% dialing it back in good-faith to explain why I just framed it as you put it. 1. I read tinco's comment to state (paraphrasing): "it is difficult to start a business, and for the common person it is a game of chance." Which, I absolutely agree with when I measure it against my life experiences/knowledge. 2. You replied with two questions, also paraphrasing: "It's a lottery to work at Taco Bell?", and, "And assuming you do work at Taco Bell, that you would become a manager who could save up to own their own store?" --- Given that scope of the conversation, I assumed you were positing that someone could seriously start working at a Taco Bell, start saving their money, and then some day afford their own franchise location. The first question of 2 is an absolute possibility, ie: it is not a lottery to work at Taco Bell and it would be silly to assume otherwise. That may have confused me leading into the second question, asked rhetorically, as something that you deemed possible. This is to say, "A person could absolutely work at Taco Bell, and they could also save to own their own some day." The "Gimme a break man" in reply to someone saying something that I deem 100% rational (#1) with two rhetorical questions that seem to paint the situations that they posit as rational possibilities confuses the crap out of me. Simply put: You submitted two arguments, seemingly painted as possible realities, in an adversarial way to something I saw as a rational and relevant statement. I fired back thinking you thought that was possible because there's not much context to figure otherwise. If I confused your comment I apologize. Quick Edit: When I posted this reply I saw another person, harimau777, answering similar to myself with another credible source (also with a much higher caliber quality of language - I'm goof sometimes). What I'm trying to say is I'm not the only one who took your statements this way.
  - harimau777 6y ago
    The amount of opportunity available to a given person can vary greatly. For example, one person could have college paid for by parents, another could work to pay for college, and another could not have the opportunity to work to pay for college (e.g. perhaps they are taking care of younger siblings or sick family members). Available effort could likewise vary. For example, someone with a disability might have much less effort available or their effort may be significantly less efficient. Someone who has to expend a great deal of effort on other matters (e.g. providing for basic needs, self protection, caring for others, etc.) may have less effort to expend towards things like career advancement or education. The argument as I see it is that a person expending a roughly average amount of effort should be able to achieve a reasonable quality of life with the luck and opportunities that are available to them. (There will of course always be some variance in the effort required and the outcome received, but that's fine as long as it stays within a reasonable distance of this goal.) The increasing anger over inequality seems to me to be because people are being asked to give above average effort (e.g. working multiple or demeaning jobs) in exchange for a low quality of life (e.g. difficulty affording healthcare, housing, retirement, raising a family, etc.).
- pyuser583 6y ago
  I know a lot of Indian-Americans and Ukrainian-Americans for whom this is the norm. Step one: arrive in the United States as a child. Step two: a childhood of grinding poverty. Step three: make tons of money in STEM. It happens with extreme regularity. It is the rule, not the exception. Ok - maybe I’m exaggerating a bit. I’m sure some of them don’t “make it.” Someone is staffing those food vans. But it’s not unusual either.

coliveira 6y ago

The issue is not that these cases exist, but that they are sold as being the standard, which they're clearly not. To became wealthy coming from a poor background requires a lot of effort, sense of opportunity, and frankly, luck. But all this is sold as something at grasp to anyone in this country, which is clearly false.

Consultant32452 6y ago
Of course luck plays a role in everything. It's merely luck that I've never been run over by a bus, or any number of other problems. But can you help me understand how a lot of effort and a sense of opportunity is not available to the common person?
- 2019-nCoV 6y ago
  42% of children born to parents in the bottom fifth of the income distribution ("quintile") remain in the bottom, while 39% born to parents in the top fifth remain at the top.
  - Consultant32452 6y ago
    Okay, more than half of the people at the bottom rise up out of it. And less than half of the people at the top stay at the top. What are you hoping for? Please be as specific as possible. And what does this have to do with whether a lot of effort and a sense of opportunity is available to the common person?
    - 2019-nCoV 6y ago
      Most every other developed nation has greater social mobility than the US [1]. Why can't the US reach Scandinavian levels of social mobility? [1] https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/stocks/ranked-the-social-mobility-of-82-countries-1028885766 https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/stocks/ranked-the-s...
      - Consultant32452 6y ago
        A full explanation is too complicated for a single post. But here's two good starters. https://wtfhappenedin1971.com/ https://wtfhappenedin1971.com/ https://www.ineteconomics.org/perspectives/blog/how-why-government-universities-industry-create-domestic-labor-shortages-of-scientists-high-tech-workers https://www.ineteconomics.org/perspectives/blog/how-why-gove... Now that we've addressed your off topic question. Could you please try to explain how hard work and a sense of opportunity is not available to the common person?
      - marcusverus 6y ago
        Advocates of big government love these metrics that have been put through the academic ringer, so-as to spit out whatever tortured output is expected. Why look at this kind of esoteric figure at all? Why not look at, you know, real numbers? Spending as percentage of GDP: Denmark - 52% of GDP Norway - 55% of GDP Finland - 53% of GDP Sweden - 50% of GDP Iceland - 42% of GDP Average - 50.5% USA - 22% of GDP What does all that extra spending get them? Poverty rates: [0] Denmark - 13% Norway - Not reported Finland - Not reported Sweden - 15% Iceland - Not reported USA - 15% Unemployment rates (2017): [0] Denmark - 5.7 Norway - 4.2 Finland - 8.5 Sweden - 6.7 Iceland - 2.8 USA - 4.4 Household Incomein US dollars (2018) [3] Denmark - $34,712 Norway - $39,555 Finland - $34,497 Sweden - $34,301 Iceland - Not reported USA - $50,292 Household Debt as % of disposable income (2015-2018): [1] Denmark - 281% Norway - 239% Finland - 145% Sweden - 189% Iceland - Not reported USA - 105% Household Net worth as % of net income (2014): [2] Denmark - 553% Norway - 318% Finland - 359% Sweden - 526% Iceland - Not reported USA - 601% [0]https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook [1]https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-debt.htm https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-debt.htm [2]https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-net-worth.htm#indicator-chart https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-net-worth.htm#indicator-... [3]https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-disposable-income.htm#indicator-chart https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-disposable-income.htm#in...
  - WalterBright 6y ago
    Or 58% born in the bottom fifth move up, and 61% born in the top fifth fall down.
- tinco 6y ago
  It's the classic Trump small loan of a million dollars scenario. Sure not many are as lucky as Trump was. But even t hese examples of blue collar success have a bunch of luck in them. Not everyone can start a machine shop with their dad, or own or even operate a taco restaurant. You need to be at the right place, the right moment, have the right amount of money and or the right equipment, interests and skills. And only then your sense of opportunity and effort will take you places. For the common person it's a lottery just to be allowed to play the game.
  - Consultant32452 6y ago
    For the common person it's a lottery just to be allowed to work at Taco Bell and do what the Taco Bell handbook tells you? And then, once you become a manager to save your pennies until you have a down payment on your own store? Gimme a break man.
    - folkhack 6y ago
      How many people do you think working the counter FT at Taco Smell can save enough money to afford their own franchise location? > The cost of opening a new Taco Bell restaurant is between $1.2 million and $2.6 million. Taco Bell also charges a $45,000 franchise fee, an ongoing royalty fee equal to 5.5% of gross sales, and a marketing fee equal to 4.25% of gross sales. https://www.businessinsider.com/what-it-costs-to-open-a-taco-bell-2014-11 https://www.businessinsider.com/what-it-costs-to-open-a-taco... Give ME a break man. LOL.
      - Consultant32452 6y ago
        I expect about 0% of people to go from the bottom level position at Taco Bell directly to owning one. But I'm sure you're smart enough to have known that. So why did you feel it would be useful to frame the scenario in such a disingenuous way?
        folkhack 6y ago
        I am 100% dialing it back in good-faith to explain why I just framed it as you put it. 1. I read tinco's comment to state (paraphrasing): "it is difficult to start a business, and for the common person it is a game of chance." Which, I absolutely agree with when I measure it against my life experiences/knowledge. 2. You replied with two questions, also paraphrasing: "It's a lottery to work at Taco Bell?", and, "And assuming you do work at Taco Bell, that you would become a manager who could save up to own their own store?" --- Given that scope of the conversation, I assumed you were positing that someone could seriously start working at a Taco Bell, start saving their money, and then some day afford their own franchise location. The first question of 2 is an absolute possibility, ie: it is not a lottery to work at Taco Bell and it would be silly to assume otherwise. That may have confused me leading into the second question, asked rhetorically, as something that you deemed possible. This is to say, "A person could absolutely work at Taco Bell, and they could also save to own their own some day." The "Gimme a break man" in reply to someone saying something that I deem 100% rational (#1) with two rhetorical questions that seem to paint the situations that they posit as rational possibilities confuses the crap out of me. Simply put: You submitted two arguments, seemingly painted as possible realities, in an adversarial way to something I saw as a rational and relevant statement. I fired back thinking you thought that was possible because there's not much context to figure otherwise. If I confused your comment I apologize. Quick Edit: When I posted this reply I saw another person, harimau777, answering similar to myself with another credible source (also with a much higher caliber quality of language - I'm goof sometimes). What I'm trying to say is I'm not the only one who took your statements this way.
- harimau777 6y ago
  The amount of opportunity available to a given person can vary greatly. For example, one person could have college paid for by parents, another could work to pay for college, and another could not have the opportunity to work to pay for college (e.g. perhaps they are taking care of younger siblings or sick family members). Available effort could likewise vary. For example, someone with a disability might have much less effort available or their effort may be significantly less efficient. Someone who has to expend a great deal of effort on other matters (e.g. providing for basic needs, self protection, caring for others, etc.) may have less effort to expend towards things like career advancement or education. The argument as I see it is that a person expending a roughly average amount of effort should be able to achieve a reasonable quality of life with the luck and opportunities that are available to them. (There will of course always be some variance in the effort required and the outcome received, but that's fine as long as it stays within a reasonable distance of this goal.) The increasing anger over inequality seems to me to be because people are being asked to give above average effort (e.g. working multiple or demeaning jobs) in exchange for a low quality of life (e.g. difficulty affording healthcare, housing, retirement, raising a family, etc.).
pyuser583 6y ago
I know a lot of Indian-Americans and Ukrainian-Americans for whom this is the norm. Step one: arrive in the United States as a child. Step two: a childhood of grinding poverty. Step three: make tons of money in STEM. It happens with extreme regularity. It is the rule, not the exception. Ok - maybe I’m exaggerating a bit. I’m sure some of them don’t “make it.” Someone is staffing those food vans. But it’s not unusual either.