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Fun fact. iCloud backup "conveniently" records all phone history (calls, text messages). And maybe the authorities cannot get into your phone (debatable) but Ap

Fun fact. iCloud backup "conveniently" records all phone history (calls, text messages). And maybe the authorities cannot get into your phone (debatable) but Apple always gives them your backups (warrant+gag order). And that includes ALL call logs and ALL your SMS and iMessages.

snazz 6y ago
I'm not condoning Apple's decision to not perform end-to-end encryption on iCloud backups, but they would be pretty useless if they didn't include call logs and text messages. If I lose my phone and restore from a backup on a new one, I want my old text messages as much as any other piece of data.
- grawprog 6y ago
  Google, not that I typically support things they do, found a way to do both: https://support.google.com/googleone/answer/9149304?co=GENIE.Platform%3DAndroid&hl=en https://support.google.com/googleone/answer/9149304?co=GENIE... As far as I know, appleid's have some kind of password/authentication system that could be used to encrypt backups.
  - dubcanada 6y ago
    It doesn't say it stores text messages? It says it stores text messages on Android which means they are not backed up. It also says you use Android messenger which hooks up to Google's services. The text messages have to be stored somewhere.
    - yencabulator 6y ago
      What text are you reading? https://support.google.com/googleone/answer/9149304?co=GENIE.Platform%3DAndroid&hl=en https://support.google.com/googleone/answer/9149304?co=GENIE... says What gets saved by Android The following data is backed up in your Android settings. You don't need to turn on Google One's backup to save this data. App data Call history Contacts Settings SMS messages Note, "by Android", not "on Android" as you claim.
  - snazz 6y ago
    It's certainly technically possible for Apple to encrypt iCloud backups the same way that they do with Keychain and iMessage (when backups are disabled).
- lonelappde 6y ago
  How did our parents thrive without permanent records of all their personal phone conversations?
WrtCdEvrydy 6y ago
I haven't done a lot of iCloud recoveries, but regular backups have passwords by default.
ThePowerOfFuet 6y ago
>and iMessages Not if you don't have iMessage enabled in iCloud settings.
sneak 6y ago
If the Snowden slides about PRISM are to be believed (and we don't have any reason to doubt their credibility), then ever since October 2012, your iCloud data (device backups, email, message history, photos, notes, et c) are available for download by the US military intelligence community directly from Apple servers, with no warrant required (rubber stamp secret police FISA "court" orders are not warrants and they have no oversight). Apple has, of course, denied this: “We have never heard of PRISM,” said Apple spokesperson Steve Dowling in a statement. “We do not provide any government agency with direct access to our servers, and any government agency requesting customer data must get a court order.” Shortly thereafter, the heads of many of the affected companies met with Obama at the white house to coordinate their next steps at counteracting the damage. The initial cover story was that they were meeting to discuss the healthcare.gov disaster, but it turned out that the meeting was actually about the NSA's comprehensive illegal spying programs being disclosed. https://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/18/us/politics/as-tech-industry-leaders-meet-with-obama-nsa-ruling-looms-large.html https://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/18/us/politics/as-tech-indus... Reuters reported in January of 2020 that an ex-Apple employee told them that Apple Legal scrapped a 2018-2020 project to do clientside end-to-end encryption of the iCloud device backups (which would render this collection useless) as a result of pressure from the US government. "That person told Reuters the company did not want to risk being attacked by public officials for protecting criminals, sued for moving previously accessible data out of reach of government agencies or used as an excuse for new legislation against encryption." https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-fbi-icloud-exclusive/exclusive-apple-dropped-plan-for-encrypting-backups-after-fbi-complained-sources-idUSKBN1ZK1CT https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-fbi-icloud-exclusiv... Non-e2e-encrypted iCloud Backups are on by default for every single iOS device if it is set up with an Apple ID. Please do not believe the Apple marketing narrative about individual privacy.
- lonelappde 6y ago
  What does oversight mean? If FISA warrants were reviewed by a second judge, would that not also be a "rubber stamp"?
  - sneak 6y ago
    Checks and balances by a theoretically adversarial party to ensure no misuse/abuse of the system, much like what a judge is supposed to do in the case of issuing a traditional search/seizure warrant. It seems like you're aware that the FISA court just rubber stamps everything, so resultantly it might as well just not exist because it's simply a farce to make it seem legitimate by invoking the term "court". You're right in pointing out that a second FISA "court" judge would not make any difference. Ultimately though, even oversight would not solve the problem of the fact that they should just be getting warrants for doing police surveillance in the first place. The bar to getting a federal judge to sign off on any technical mumbo jumbo ("IP address this, ISP that") is hilariously bad/low and they amount pretty much to rubber stamps already. The mind reels when you think that they set up a special fake court simply to avoid that.

snazz 6y ago

I'm not condoning Apple's decision to not perform end-to-end encryption on iCloud backups, but they would be pretty useless if they didn't include call logs and text messages. If I lose my phone and restore from a backup on a new one, I want my old text messages as much as any other piece of data.

grawprog 6y ago
Google, not that I typically support things they do, found a way to do both: https://support.google.com/googleone/answer/9149304?co=GENIE.Platform%3DAndroid&hl=en https://support.google.com/googleone/answer/9149304?co=GENIE... As far as I know, appleid's have some kind of password/authentication system that could be used to encrypt backups.
- dubcanada 6y ago
  It doesn't say it stores text messages? It says it stores text messages on Android which means they are not backed up. It also says you use Android messenger which hooks up to Google's services. The text messages have to be stored somewhere.
  - yencabulator 6y ago
    What text are you reading? https://support.google.com/googleone/answer/9149304?co=GENIE.Platform%3DAndroid&hl=en https://support.google.com/googleone/answer/9149304?co=GENIE... says What gets saved by Android The following data is backed up in your Android settings. You don't need to turn on Google One's backup to save this data. App data Call history Contacts Settings SMS messages Note, "by Android", not "on Android" as you claim.
- snazz 6y ago
  It's certainly technically possible for Apple to encrypt iCloud backups the same way that they do with Keychain and iMessage (when backups are disabled).
lonelappde 6y ago
How did our parents thrive without permanent records of all their personal phone conversations?

WrtCdEvrydy 6y ago

I haven't done a lot of iCloud recoveries, but regular backups have passwords by default.

ThePowerOfFuet 6y ago

>and iMessages Not if you don't have iMessage enabled in iCloud settings.

sneak 6y ago

If the Snowden slides about PRISM are to be believed (and we don't have any reason to doubt their credibility), then ever since October 2012, your iCloud data (device backups, email, message history, photos, notes, et c) are available for download by the US military intelligence community directly from Apple servers, with no warrant required (rubber stamp secret police FISA "court" orders are not warrants and they have no oversight). Apple has, of course, denied this: “We have never heard of PRISM,” said Apple spokesperson Steve Dowling in a statement. “We do not provide any government agency with direct access to our servers, and any government agency requesting customer data must get a court order.” Shortly thereafter, the heads of many of the affected companies met with Obama at the white house to coordinate their next steps at counteracting the damage. The initial cover story was that they were meeting to discuss the healthcare.gov disaster, but it turned out that the meeting was actually about the NSA's comprehensive illegal spying programs being disclosed. https://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/18/us/politics/as-tech-industry-leaders-meet-with-obama-nsa-ruling-looms-large.html https://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/18/us/politics/as-tech-indus... Reuters reported in January of 2020 that an ex-Apple employee told them that Apple Legal scrapped a 2018-2020 project to do clientside end-to-end encryption of the iCloud device backups (which would render this collection useless) as a result of pressure from the US government. "That person told Reuters the company did not want to risk being attacked by public officials for protecting criminals, sued for moving previously accessible data out of reach of government agencies or used as an excuse for new legislation against encryption." https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-fbi-icloud-exclusive/exclusive-apple-dropped-plan-for-encrypting-backups-after-fbi-complained-sources-idUSKBN1ZK1CT https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-fbi-icloud-exclusiv... Non-e2e-encrypted iCloud Backups are on by default for every single iOS device if it is set up with an Apple ID. Please do not believe the Apple marketing narrative about individual privacy.

lonelappde 6y ago
What does oversight mean? If FISA warrants were reviewed by a second judge, would that not also be a "rubber stamp"?
- sneak 6y ago
  Checks and balances by a theoretically adversarial party to ensure no misuse/abuse of the system, much like what a judge is supposed to do in the case of issuing a traditional search/seizure warrant. It seems like you're aware that the FISA court just rubber stamps everything, so resultantly it might as well just not exist because it's simply a farce to make it seem legitimate by invoking the term "court". You're right in pointing out that a second FISA "court" judge would not make any difference. Ultimately though, even oversight would not solve the problem of the fact that they should just be getting warrants for doing police surveillance in the first place. The bar to getting a federal judge to sign off on any technical mumbo jumbo ("IP address this, ISP that") is hilariously bad/low and they amount pretty much to rubber stamps already. The mind reels when you think that they set up a special fake court simply to avoid that.