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By now there’s a lot of empty beds and there’s more than sufficient capacity in testing. It totally makes sense to reopen a bit and try to find sustainable mode

By now there’s a lot of empty beds and there’s more than sufficient capacity in testing. It totally makes sense to reopen a bit and try to find sustainable mode of quarantine.

mrfusion 7y ago
I’d like to see a focused approach on protecting nursing homes and the elderly. This is no way for the world to live. Please don’t try to normalize this.
- CydeWeys 7y ago
  A lot more people than you realize are willing to sacrifice them to get the economy (and normal life) running again. They just don't talk about openly in stark terms, for obvious reasons.
  - luckylion 7y ago
    Everybody is willing to do so, the difference is only when. Some may think we should "sacrifice" them immediately, because living without a mocha latte grande whatever just isn't okay, but if we'd face mass starvation, I'm pretty sure that everybody would agree that we can't keep going. Of course, that's unlikely, but let's not pretend that there's some (sane) group of people out there, that actually say "under no circumstances may any life be put in danger, ever".
    - apatters 7y ago
      It is simply incredible that you've reduced the argument for lifting lockdowns to "getting a mocha latte grande whatever." I have never seen an argument made in such bad faith before. The US has just suffered its largest job losses in history. The people who lost these jobs skew heavily toward lower income brackets and little or no savings. The losses are still growing. How can you say something like this with a straight face?
      - luckylion 7y ago
        > It is simply incredible that you've reduced the argument for lifting lockdowns to "getting a mocha latte grande whatever." I have never seen an argument made in such bad faith before. It's meant to be the worst possible reason to end the lock down, with "otherwise everybody dies" being the best possible reason. Everybody falls somewhere between these extremes. I just wanted to make clear that there is no sane position that responds to the worst possible circumstances by saying "lives must not be lost because of Covid-19, but I'm fine with them being lost because of our reaction to Covid-19". My personal opinion is somewhat close to yours, I believe. I'm aware that a massively shrinking economy has severe real world consequences.
- IfOnlyYouKnew 7y ago
  It's a focussed effort to contain/eradicate the virus. At current levels, it's already possible to extensively investigate every single case and trace & isolate contacts. That should allow for continued reduction with far lower restrictions on daily life compared to the blanket measures of the last few weeks. And while specifically protecting nursing homes and the elderly is obviously being attempted, that's just far harder than one might think: nursing homes have a lot of employees, almost all of which are rather young. While some contacts can be minimised by, for example, switching to external catering, the need for care, cleaning, and medical treatments are rather inflexible.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- ivan_gammel 7y ago
  People in nursing homes and the elderly are not the only ones who can die or suffer from lifelong consequences, so yes, we have to adapt to new normality for at least a year, in which everyone is part of the effort. If it means, that certain businesses or jobs won’t survive — so be it, others will get stronger out of it and new competitors will appear, but this is going to work. It has to. Germany and German people are in good position here, because government is spending generously and welfare system is good. Wir schaffen das.
  - playing_colours 6y ago
    German Government is also collecting taxes insatiably. I am happy I can finally see some benefits of it: support of small businesses and freelancers impacted by COVID crisis and that our hospitals are well equipped. Unfortunately, it is not the case with our infrastructure, Kitas, and school.
oezi 7y ago
Contact tracing and testing continues to be abysmal. Friends had 15 minute contact to a person which was identified as positive 1 day later. Took 5 days for them to receive their test result taken on the day after notification.
- makomk 7y ago
  In Germany? You have probably the biggest, best coronavirus testing program out there right now. Your program is the one that our press in the UK always points at in order to convince us that our government has failed us on testing. (Not all of their comparisons are actually true, but that's another topic.)
  - corty 7y ago
    I guess the real facts will only be known in the years after the crisis. Currently everyone is very much in propaganda&blame mode. I wouldn't trust any such comparison. For example two weeks ago the RKI "accidentially" reported a 30% rise in testing. Later they admitted no rise and a clerical error... Truth is, Germany currently has around 50% of its testing capacity unused because the bureaucracy still behaves as if tests were precious or just doesn't get around to issuing testing papers fast enough. And they still don't work in the weekends...
- IfOnlyYouKnew 7y ago
  While not perfect, it's the notification that needs to be fast. After that, you're expected to isolate for two weeks no matter what, because any test wouldn't necessarily detect an infection if it's still in the earliest stages.

By now there’s a lot of empty beds and there’s more than sufficient capacity in testing. It totally makes sense to reopen a bit and try to find sustainable mode of quarantine.

mrfusion 7y ago

I’d like to see a focused approach on protecting nursing homes and the elderly. This is no way for the world to live. Please don’t try to normalize this.

CydeWeys 7y ago
A lot more people than you realize are willing to sacrifice them to get the economy (and normal life) running again. They just don't talk about openly in stark terms, for obvious reasons.
- luckylion 7y ago
  Everybody is willing to do so, the difference is only when. Some may think we should "sacrifice" them immediately, because living without a mocha latte grande whatever just isn't okay, but if we'd face mass starvation, I'm pretty sure that everybody would agree that we can't keep going. Of course, that's unlikely, but let's not pretend that there's some (sane) group of people out there, that actually say "under no circumstances may any life be put in danger, ever".
  - apatters 7y ago
    It is simply incredible that you've reduced the argument for lifting lockdowns to "getting a mocha latte grande whatever." I have never seen an argument made in such bad faith before. The US has just suffered its largest job losses in history. The people who lost these jobs skew heavily toward lower income brackets and little or no savings. The losses are still growing. How can you say something like this with a straight face?
    - luckylion 7y ago
      > It is simply incredible that you've reduced the argument for lifting lockdowns to "getting a mocha latte grande whatever." I have never seen an argument made in such bad faith before. It's meant to be the worst possible reason to end the lock down, with "otherwise everybody dies" being the best possible reason. Everybody falls somewhere between these extremes. I just wanted to make clear that there is no sane position that responds to the worst possible circumstances by saying "lives must not be lost because of Covid-19, but I'm fine with them being lost because of our reaction to Covid-19". My personal opinion is somewhat close to yours, I believe. I'm aware that a massively shrinking economy has severe real world consequences.
IfOnlyYouKnew 7y ago
It's a focussed effort to contain/eradicate the virus. At current levels, it's already possible to extensively investigate every single case and trace & isolate contacts. That should allow for continued reduction with far lower restrictions on daily life compared to the blanket measures of the last few weeks. And while specifically protecting nursing homes and the elderly is obviously being attempted, that's just far harder than one might think: nursing homes have a lot of employees, almost all of which are rather young. While some contacts can be minimised by, for example, switching to external catering, the need for care, cleaning, and medical treatments are rather inflexible.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
ivan_gammel 7y ago
People in nursing homes and the elderly are not the only ones who can die or suffer from lifelong consequences, so yes, we have to adapt to new normality for at least a year, in which everyone is part of the effort. If it means, that certain businesses or jobs won’t survive — so be it, others will get stronger out of it and new competitors will appear, but this is going to work. It has to. Germany and German people are in good position here, because government is spending generously and welfare system is good. Wir schaffen das.
- playing_colours 6y ago
  German Government is also collecting taxes insatiably. I am happy I can finally see some benefits of it: support of small businesses and freelancers impacted by COVID crisis and that our hospitals are well equipped. Unfortunately, it is not the case with our infrastructure, Kitas, and school.

oezi 7y ago

Contact tracing and testing continues to be abysmal. Friends had 15 minute contact to a person which was identified as positive 1 day later. Took 5 days for them to receive their test result taken on the day after notification.

makomk 7y ago
In Germany? You have probably the biggest, best coronavirus testing program out there right now. Your program is the one that our press in the UK always points at in order to convince us that our government has failed us on testing. (Not all of their comparisons are actually true, but that's another topic.)
- corty 7y ago
  I guess the real facts will only be known in the years after the crisis. Currently everyone is very much in propaganda&blame mode. I wouldn't trust any such comparison. For example two weeks ago the RKI "accidentially" reported a 30% rise in testing. Later they admitted no rise and a clerical error... Truth is, Germany currently has around 50% of its testing capacity unused because the bureaucracy still behaves as if tests were precious or just doesn't get around to issuing testing papers fast enough. And they still don't work in the weekends...
IfOnlyYouKnew 7y ago
While not perfect, it's the notification that needs to be fast. After that, you're expected to isolate for two weeks no matter what, because any test wouldn't necessarily detect an infection if it's still in the earliest stages.