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> Consider that the shutdowns themselves can lead to even worse consequences Are you saying that when people cannot travel by airplanes, go to a theater or a r

by js8 7y ago

> Consider that the shutdowns themselves can lead to even worse consequences Are you saying that when people cannot travel by airplanes, go to a theater or a restaurant, then this is inevitably causing children to die? What kind of sick society is that, which cannot make a different economic arrangement? I understand (obviously) there are jobs that are required for functioning of the modern society, but to claim that it cannot be organized (especially given we have Internet) so that people could avoid mass gatherings is insane.

vertex-four 7y ago
> What kind of sick society is that, which cannot make a different economic arrangement? Aye. Specifically, the market must work in favour of society - if it's not working in a way that we find to be ethical, we have an obligation to regulate it. It must not be treated as a power that kills people and allows us to throw our hands up and say "that's fine" - if something is to kill hundreds of thousands of children, we must treat it as harshly as the pandemic we're currently in.
neilwilson 7y ago
What we are discovering under the lockdown arrangements is precisely which jobs are actually required in the economy, and which are there just to cause some financial figure to increase. Other than the stupefying boredom and colossal holes in the safety net due to the ideological blinkers of politicians and their cronies, exactly what isn't being done that needs to be done in the real world? The farmers around here are still as busy as ever with their lambs. The wheat is growing in the fields. The rapespeed is below and as fragrant as normal. Supermarkets are stocked, and food is on the shelf. The power is on. The Internet is working. The drains function and refuse is being cleared. Are some people scared that we might realise just how much activity is really fluff?
- Izkata 7y ago
  > The farmers around here are still as busy as ever with their lambs. The wheat is growing in the fields. The rapespeed is below and as fragrant as normal. Supermarkets are stocked, and food is on the shelf. Raw milk is being dumped because processing facilities to make it safe to drink are shut down. Meat processing centers are shut down or running at below capacity - beef is already disappearing from shelves. Vegetables likewise, farmers are losing ways to get to market. The lockdowns have interrupted the path from source to store, and we're approaching a food shortage because of it. People will go hungry if we can't get the economy moving again.
  - js8 7y ago
    I lack the explanation of the cause of the shut down. Are they being shut down because they cannot find employees or because they they cannot find consumers? If they actually over produce (i.e. the consumption decreased), then I don't see how you can claim this will lead to shortage. On the other hand, if they shut down because there is undersupply of labour, then surely the people can be employed once they actually become hungry? Either way, the market mechanism should rectify both situations.
    - Izkata 6y ago
      My other reply: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23134515 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23134515 Short version: it's workers getting infected, which shuts down the plant to stop further spread. The "market mechanism" can't avoid that.
  - alwillis 7y ago
    Two Walmart supermarkets near me are shutdown because employees tested positive for COVID-19 and at least one has died. Which explains why they cancelled my delivery order a few days ago. The app didn’t mention why my order was canceled… Instacart is more expensive but about 20% of what I order is out of stock. So basic groceries aren’t as available as they were a month ago.
    - js8 7y ago
      I think this is what is gonna happen (in the U.S.). Because of lack of coordinated shutdown of non-essential economic activity, much more people will become infected, causing eventual shut downs of more essential activity. So reopening the economy in order to save it is completely backwards. It's like drinking alcohol when you're suffering from cold, which will cause more heat loss. It might feel better, but in fact, it is making things worse, by not conserving heat on the parts of your body that are less essential for your survival.
  - foogazi 7y ago
    > Meat processing centers are shut down or running at below capacity Why are meat processing centers shut down?
- js8 7y ago
  > Are some people scared that we might realise just how much activity is really fluff? Yes, the people who own shares (or other stakes in the economy) are worried about it, because they might be the ones who ends up with the fluff. I think the worries have been described in famous Kalecki's essay: http://gesd.free.fr/kalecki43.pdf http://gesd.free.fr/kalecki43.pdf The lockdown is just a different way of getting the economy close to the state of full employment - by reducing consumption rather than by increasing production.
- Gibbon1 7y ago
  > Are some people scared that we might realise just how much activity is really fluff? Absolutely. The people pushing this simply don't care about ordinary peoples lives. What they care about is this is a direct challenge to their carefully constructed status quo. The one that gaslights people into thinking is we change the power relations even a tiny bit the roof will cave in.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
EGreg 7y ago
I am not saying that - in fact I am deeply skeptical of the UN’s claims when it comes to this. However they are speaking about people in other countries. Even in the USA, livestock is euthanized and the food chain is severely disrupted. Supermarket food is going to cost more. Food insecurity exists even in the USA. Malnourishment is a big thing. If you want to learn more about it, listen to what the UN is warning about: https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/04/22/africa/coronavirus-famine-un-warning-intl/index.html https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/04/22/africa/coronavirus-famine...

by js8 7y ago

vertex-four 7y ago

> What kind of sick society is that, which cannot make a different economic arrangement? Aye. Specifically, the market must work in favour of society - if it's not working in a way that we find to be ethical, we have an obligation to regulate it. It must not be treated as a power that kills people and allows us to throw our hands up and say "that's fine" - if something is to kill hundreds of thousands of children, we must treat it as harshly as the pandemic we're currently in.

neilwilson 7y ago

What we are discovering under the lockdown arrangements is precisely which jobs are actually required in the economy, and which are there just to cause some financial figure to increase. Other than the stupefying boredom and colossal holes in the safety net due to the ideological blinkers of politicians and their cronies, exactly what isn't being done that needs to be done in the real world? The farmers around here are still as busy as ever with their lambs. The wheat is growing in the fields. The rapespeed is below and as fragrant as normal. Supermarkets are stocked, and food is on the shelf. The power is on. The Internet is working. The drains function and refuse is being cleared. Are some people scared that we might realise just how much activity is really fluff?

Izkata 7y ago
> The farmers around here are still as busy as ever with their lambs. The wheat is growing in the fields. The rapespeed is below and as fragrant as normal. Supermarkets are stocked, and food is on the shelf. Raw milk is being dumped because processing facilities to make it safe to drink are shut down. Meat processing centers are shut down or running at below capacity - beef is already disappearing from shelves. Vegetables likewise, farmers are losing ways to get to market. The lockdowns have interrupted the path from source to store, and we're approaching a food shortage because of it. People will go hungry if we can't get the economy moving again.
- js8 7y ago
  I lack the explanation of the cause of the shut down. Are they being shut down because they cannot find employees or because they they cannot find consumers? If they actually over produce (i.e. the consumption decreased), then I don't see how you can claim this will lead to shortage. On the other hand, if they shut down because there is undersupply of labour, then surely the people can be employed once they actually become hungry? Either way, the market mechanism should rectify both situations.
  - Izkata 6y ago
    My other reply: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23134515 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23134515 Short version: it's workers getting infected, which shuts down the plant to stop further spread. The "market mechanism" can't avoid that.
- alwillis 7y ago
  Two Walmart supermarkets near me are shutdown because employees tested positive for COVID-19 and at least one has died. Which explains why they cancelled my delivery order a few days ago. The app didn’t mention why my order was canceled… Instacart is more expensive but about 20% of what I order is out of stock. So basic groceries aren’t as available as they were a month ago.
  - js8 7y ago
    I think this is what is gonna happen (in the U.S.). Because of lack of coordinated shutdown of non-essential economic activity, much more people will become infected, causing eventual shut downs of more essential activity. So reopening the economy in order to save it is completely backwards. It's like drinking alcohol when you're suffering from cold, which will cause more heat loss. It might feel better, but in fact, it is making things worse, by not conserving heat on the parts of your body that are less essential for your survival.
- foogazi 7y ago
  > Meat processing centers are shut down or running at below capacity Why are meat processing centers shut down?
js8 7y ago
> Are some people scared that we might realise just how much activity is really fluff? Yes, the people who own shares (or other stakes in the economy) are worried about it, because they might be the ones who ends up with the fluff. I think the worries have been described in famous Kalecki's essay: http://gesd.free.fr/kalecki43.pdf http://gesd.free.fr/kalecki43.pdf The lockdown is just a different way of getting the economy close to the state of full employment - by reducing consumption rather than by increasing production.
Gibbon1 7y ago
> Are some people scared that we might realise just how much activity is really fluff? Absolutely. The people pushing this simply don't care about ordinary peoples lives. What they care about is this is a direct challenge to their carefully constructed status quo. The one that gaslights people into thinking is we change the power relations even a tiny bit the roof will cave in.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

EGreg 7y ago

I am not saying that - in fact I am deeply skeptical of the UN’s claims when it comes to this. However they are speaking about people in other countries. Even in the USA, livestock is euthanized and the food chain is severely disrupted. Supermarket food is going to cost more. Food insecurity exists even in the USA. Malnourishment is a big thing. If you want to learn more about it, listen to what the UN is warning about: https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/04/22/africa/coronavirus-famine-un-warning-intl/index.html https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/04/22/africa/coronavirus-famine...