5 ms·

Tesla sues Alameda County to force California factory reopening

39 points by anandaverma18 6y ago

natch 6y ago
Elon said they have been able to reopen safely in China, and that zero of their 7,000 employees there have died of Corona. Joe Rogan challenged him on this, asking “how can you trust the Chinese media”? Elon’s answer: We don’t have to rely on the media. We know how many people we have. We have to; we do payroll. He has a point. And zero is a pretty good number. If they know how to do it in China, they can apply those same safety measures elsewhere. I wish he would also acknowledge family spread and fatalities if there are any, because that can also be a thing. But still, hard news, this is something we are going to have to live with for a while. And they are managing it pretty well in one factory at least. Also if you haven’t ever been to a Tesla factory... it’s not a place where people are crammed together by any means. It’s vast. Workers are quite spread out for the most part.
- nathanvanfleet 6y ago
  But what if somehow they were close together. Like a lunch room or a bathroom. Not sure if the bathrooms are particularly vast. It's also a question of how opening a factory creates scenarios where people have to commute which creates risk too. People at my office are working remotely but some things are prevented because there are things in the physical office. Traveling across town is the reason they don't go in.
- sandworm101 6y ago
  >> that zero of their 7,000 employees there have died of Corona. How many have died of other things? How many have lost grandparents to "pneumonia"? Is anyone sick with an diagnosed respiratory illness? What about suppliers? Have they been impacted? Are any of their people home sick? Saying simply "nobody under my roof is dead" is not helpful. I see a very wealthy manufacturer of luxury goods lashing out in the face of some cold realities. Oil prices have tanked. The world is looking at serious recession. The growth forecast for luxury electric vehicles is dim.
  - catalogia 6y ago
    You say "lashing out in the face of cold realities" yet all you've mentioned are hypotheticals you think might be likely, while Elon Musk is talking about the apparent fact that none of his employees have died.
- Shivetya 6y ago
  Well given the arbitrary nature of many of the closing demands it can get very frustrating regardless of your business size. I do know in a recent meeting we have been told two employees have died world wide out of over fifty thousand yet across the world, if not just in the US, where people who work can work is not consistent nor are the rules consistent.
- tensor 6y ago
  But China has also effectively limited or stopped the spread. I know it's not a popular idea given the US rhetoric, but there truly is no evidence that they haven't. So in light of that, it shouldn't be too hard to reopen things like factories. That said, I do believe that with sufficient protections it should be possible to operate a mostly robotic factory safely. So I do sympathize with him on that front.
- cactus2093 6y ago
  I can’t follow his logic whatsoever. China...actually handled this outbreak. That’s why they can reopen. They were locked down for months in many areas. So that comparison if anything is a justification not to reopen right now - stay locked down long enough to squash this, and we’ll be able to safely reopen like China. If anything he should be suing the county for putting on such an ineffective lockdown which makes this take longer than it needed to. Businesses are forced to close but for individuals it’s basically a completely voluntary lockdown right now and I see lots of people opting out, not wearing masks, meeting up with friends, etc.
  - natch 6y ago
    The way you talk about people’s behavior, meeting up with friends and such, it almost sounds like going to work in the factory would actually be safer, because people are so physically separated there in their different tasks. BTW if you don’t wear a mask and go out without getting within 6 feet of anyone, you’re not opting out of California guidance. You’re following it. Masks are for if you do expect to encounter situations where you are closer than 6 feet for an extended time. People are lazy and don’t read the fine print, and they miss this part.
    - cactus2093 6y ago
      > BTW if you don’t wear a mask and go out without getting within 6 feet of anyone, you’re not opting out of California guidance. Exactly, this is the type of half-assed measures that may be preventing our decline in cases. (If it's not, and there is good evidence of exactly what types of activities California's continued plateau of cases is coming from, I would be very interested to read about that). Unless you're in a very rural area, you can't possibly be sure that you won't have to pass within 6 ft of someone when you go outside. A single other person walking on the sidewalk with you is going to inevitably be less than 6 ft away. Not to mention that the 6ft advice was just ballpark to begin with, and the virus can seemingly travel further in e.g. the slipstreams of a runner or biker's breath, or even hang around in the air. Masks should be required even outside during the Phase 1, full-lockdown phase. It's a such a minor additional inconvenience for people.
RickJWagner 6y ago
Given the good Tesla does environment-wise, I'd favor letting them re-open. Musk sure knows how to get people's attention. Maybe he's got a future in politics.
- bobcostas55 6y ago
  >Maybe he's got a future in politics. Hopefully as the first King of Mars.
  - ipnon 6y ago
    Apparently many Terrans would be happy to see him gone.
- bigbob2 6y ago
  > Maybe he's got a future in politics. Seeing as he's extremely wealthy, powerful, and connected, I'd say that's a good guess.
  - nathanvanfleet 6y ago
    Also he has paper-thin skin and is a huge narcissist. He's on his way
- dagmx 6y ago
  I’m not sure he’d have any of the two major parties wanting him. He’s too libertarian and irresponsible with his comments for the Democrats to want him. He’s far too liberal in his causes and companies to be a Republican. Of course I don’t believe either party can stop affiliation if he did decide to enter into politics. Of course that’s only really talking about the federal level. He could have a much better shot at the state or local level as an independent or as a member of either party.
  - war1025 6y ago
    I don't think there is anything that political office could offer him that would be worth the bother. The only scenario I could see potentially being appealing to him is a Trump-style takeover of the Presidency. Edit: As someone pointed out, Musk isn't a natural-born citizen and therefore can't run for President. So there is no political office that could be even remotely worth the bother.
postmeta 6y ago
Does anyone actually know what Alameda re-opening criteria the Tesla plan doesn't satisfy? https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/blog_attachments/Tesla-Return-to-Work-Playbook.pdf https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/blog_attachments/T...
- thdrdt 6y ago
  I can't find it right now but I read it also had to do with the fact that they violated safety laws multiple times.
mchusma 6y ago
I have been wondering for a while what the legal mechanism for shutting down businesses in the US actually is. I'm not being snarky, I just literally don't understand the legal mechanism. Prior to this crisis I would not have thought shutting down businesses at large scale would be possible without legislation. But I haven't heard of much legislative proceedings. Have governor's and local officials always had very broad powers over people and businesses, they just never used it at scale until the pandemic? I understand if there is a disaster and you can't convene the legislature fast enough to respond, and you need 72 hours of time to let the legislature come together (for example an earthquake or terrorist event). But there has been plenty of time now for our normal legislative process to resume. Does this have to do with an emergency declaration? Is there a limit to how long an emergency can be declared (like 60 days of a year)?
- catalogia 6y ago
  The CDC and/or FEMA having emergency powers during pandemics beyond what might be expected was something of a sci-fi trope for years. I guess there was some kernel of truth to that premise. Example from the sci-fi game Deus Ex: > Informed Guard: Executive Order 10990. It lets us take over all modes of transportation. > New Guard: FEMA can do that? > Informed Guard: If the President declares an emergency. Executive Order 10995. We can take over the media. > New Guard: All of it? > Informed Guard: Any at all. Executive Order 10997. We can take command of natural resources. > New Guard: So it's all legal. > Informed Guard: The National Security Act also falls under our umbrella. And the Defense Production Act. If he plays his cards right, Walton Simons can pull off a bloodless coup.
jmpman 6y ago
When the China plant reopened, how many new cases a day were being reported in that plant’s city? I was under the impression that China didn’t reopen until the detected new infection rate was zero.
merricksb 6y ago
Active discussion here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23129942 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23129942 Also: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23126517 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23126517 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23127552 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23127552 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23129216 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23129216

39 points by anandaverma18 6y ago

Elon said they have been able to reopen safely in China, and that zero of their 7,000 employees there have died of Corona. Joe Rogan challenged him on this, asking “how can you trust the Chinese media”? Elon’s answer: We don’t have to rely on the media. We know how many people we have. We have to; we do payroll. He has a point. And zero is a pretty good number. If they know how to do it in China, they can apply those same safety measures elsewhere. I wish he would also acknowledge family spread and fatalities if there are any, because that can also be a thing. But still, hard news, this is something we are going to have to live with for a while. And they are managing it pretty well in one factory at least. Also if you haven’t ever been to a Tesla factory... it’s not a place where people are crammed together by any means. It’s vast. Workers are quite spread out for the most part.

nathanvanfleet 6y ago
But what if somehow they were close together. Like a lunch room or a bathroom. Not sure if the bathrooms are particularly vast. It's also a question of how opening a factory creates scenarios where people have to commute which creates risk too. People at my office are working remotely but some things are prevented because there are things in the physical office. Traveling across town is the reason they don't go in.
sandworm101 6y ago
>> that zero of their 7,000 employees there have died of Corona. How many have died of other things? How many have lost grandparents to "pneumonia"? Is anyone sick with an diagnosed respiratory illness? What about suppliers? Have they been impacted? Are any of their people home sick? Saying simply "nobody under my roof is dead" is not helpful. I see a very wealthy manufacturer of luxury goods lashing out in the face of some cold realities. Oil prices have tanked. The world is looking at serious recession. The growth forecast for luxury electric vehicles is dim.
- catalogia 6y ago
  You say "lashing out in the face of cold realities" yet all you've mentioned are hypotheticals you think might be likely, while Elon Musk is talking about the apparent fact that none of his employees have died.
Shivetya 6y ago
Well given the arbitrary nature of many of the closing demands it can get very frustrating regardless of your business size. I do know in a recent meeting we have been told two employees have died world wide out of over fifty thousand yet across the world, if not just in the US, where people who work can work is not consistent nor are the rules consistent.
tensor 6y ago
But China has also effectively limited or stopped the spread. I know it's not a popular idea given the US rhetoric, but there truly is no evidence that they haven't. So in light of that, it shouldn't be too hard to reopen things like factories. That said, I do believe that with sufficient protections it should be possible to operate a mostly robotic factory safely. So I do sympathize with him on that front.
cactus2093 6y ago
I can’t follow his logic whatsoever. China...actually handled this outbreak. That’s why they can reopen. They were locked down for months in many areas. So that comparison if anything is a justification not to reopen right now - stay locked down long enough to squash this, and we’ll be able to safely reopen like China. If anything he should be suing the county for putting on such an ineffective lockdown which makes this take longer than it needed to. Businesses are forced to close but for individuals it’s basically a completely voluntary lockdown right now and I see lots of people opting out, not wearing masks, meeting up with friends, etc.
- natch 6y ago
  The way you talk about people’s behavior, meeting up with friends and such, it almost sounds like going to work in the factory would actually be safer, because people are so physically separated there in their different tasks. BTW if you don’t wear a mask and go out without getting within 6 feet of anyone, you’re not opting out of California guidance. You’re following it. Masks are for if you do expect to encounter situations where you are closer than 6 feet for an extended time. People are lazy and don’t read the fine print, and they miss this part.
  - cactus2093 6y ago
    > BTW if you don’t wear a mask and go out without getting within 6 feet of anyone, you’re not opting out of California guidance. Exactly, this is the type of half-assed measures that may be preventing our decline in cases. (If it's not, and there is good evidence of exactly what types of activities California's continued plateau of cases is coming from, I would be very interested to read about that). Unless you're in a very rural area, you can't possibly be sure that you won't have to pass within 6 ft of someone when you go outside. A single other person walking on the sidewalk with you is going to inevitably be less than 6 ft away. Not to mention that the 6ft advice was just ballpark to begin with, and the virus can seemingly travel further in e.g. the slipstreams of a runner or biker's breath, or even hang around in the air. Masks should be required even outside during the Phase 1, full-lockdown phase. It's a such a minor additional inconvenience for people.

RickJWagner 6y ago

Given the good Tesla does environment-wise, I'd favor letting them re-open. Musk sure knows how to get people's attention. Maybe he's got a future in politics.

bobcostas55 6y ago
>Maybe he's got a future in politics. Hopefully as the first King of Mars.
- ipnon 6y ago
  Apparently many Terrans would be happy to see him gone.
bigbob2 6y ago
> Maybe he's got a future in politics. Seeing as he's extremely wealthy, powerful, and connected, I'd say that's a good guess.
- nathanvanfleet 6y ago
  Also he has paper-thin skin and is a huge narcissist. He's on his way
dagmx 6y ago
I’m not sure he’d have any of the two major parties wanting him. He’s too libertarian and irresponsible with his comments for the Democrats to want him. He’s far too liberal in his causes and companies to be a Republican. Of course I don’t believe either party can stop affiliation if he did decide to enter into politics. Of course that’s only really talking about the federal level. He could have a much better shot at the state or local level as an independent or as a member of either party.
- war1025 6y ago
  I don't think there is anything that political office could offer him that would be worth the bother. The only scenario I could see potentially being appealing to him is a Trump-style takeover of the Presidency. Edit: As someone pointed out, Musk isn't a natural-born citizen and therefore can't run for President. So there is no political office that could be even remotely worth the bother.

postmeta 6y ago

Does anyone actually know what Alameda re-opening criteria the Tesla plan doesn't satisfy? https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/blog_attachments/Tesla-Return-to-Work-Playbook.pdf https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/blog_attachments/T...

thdrdt 6y ago
I can't find it right now but I read it also had to do with the fact that they violated safety laws multiple times.

mchusma 6y ago

I have been wondering for a while what the legal mechanism for shutting down businesses in the US actually is. I'm not being snarky, I just literally don't understand the legal mechanism. Prior to this crisis I would not have thought shutting down businesses at large scale would be possible without legislation. But I haven't heard of much legislative proceedings. Have governor's and local officials always had very broad powers over people and businesses, they just never used it at scale until the pandemic? I understand if there is a disaster and you can't convene the legislature fast enough to respond, and you need 72 hours of time to let the legislature come together (for example an earthquake or terrorist event). But there has been plenty of time now for our normal legislative process to resume. Does this have to do with an emergency declaration? Is there a limit to how long an emergency can be declared (like 60 days of a year)?

catalogia 6y ago
The CDC and/or FEMA having emergency powers during pandemics beyond what might be expected was something of a sci-fi trope for years. I guess there was some kernel of truth to that premise. Example from the sci-fi game Deus Ex: > Informed Guard: Executive Order 10990. It lets us take over all modes of transportation. > New Guard: FEMA can do that? > Informed Guard: If the President declares an emergency. Executive Order 10995. We can take over the media. > New Guard: All of it? > Informed Guard: Any at all. Executive Order 10997. We can take command of natural resources. > New Guard: So it's all legal. > Informed Guard: The National Security Act also falls under our umbrella. And the Defense Production Act. If he plays his cards right, Walton Simons can pull off a bloodless coup.

jmpman 6y ago

When the China plant reopened, how many new cases a day were being reported in that plant’s city? I was under the impression that China didn’t reopen until the detected new infection rate was zero.

merricksb 6y ago

Active discussion here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23129942 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23129942 Also: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23126517 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23126517 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23127552 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23127552 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23129216 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23129216