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> I basically can't go out in public without seeing someone with their mask pulled down to talk/eat/smoke. Many countries that have lifted their lockdowns and

> I basically can't go out in public without seeing someone with their mask pulled down to talk/eat/smoke. Many countries that have lifted their lockdowns and are now requiring masks in the post-lockdown stage, require those masks to be worn only on public transportation or in shops. Overall, public-health authorities do not believe that people pulling down their mask in the open air to eat or talk on their phone, will significantly change the infection curve for the worst. Let us remember that the public-health goal here is not to prohibit any and all behavior that could potentially, under very ideal circumstances, result in transmission. Rather, the goal is to institute a few general rules that will flatten the curve to the point where contact tracing is effective. People should heed their local authorities on what to do, but I am troubled by the moral panic where posters such the above are insisting on even more stringent behavior than required by the public-health authorities. With regard to hand-washing, touching things is now seen as so relatively unlikely a form of transmission, that some countries which initially required supermarkets to provide gloves and hand sanitizer, have decided to lift that requirement (while keeping the mask requirement). Of course hand washing in general is a good thing, but authorities in many countries do not think that obsessively doing so will make a real impact on COVID-19 transmission rates across society.

DanBC 6y ago
> Overall, public-health authorities do not believe that people pulling down their mask in the open air to eat or talk on their phone, will significantly change the infection curve for the worst. No. "Public health authorities" are all really clear: if you're going to wear PPE you need to do it properly. DIY cloth masks are not PPE, they're theatre, so it doesn't really matter whether you wear it or not. > With regard to hand-washing, touching things is now seen as so relatively unlikely a form of transmission This is untrue. Some people on HN are fixated on droplets and aerosols, but we know that fomites are a significant risk. https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMra032498 https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMra032498 > The primary mode of transmission appears to be through direct or indirect contact of mucous membrane (eyes, nose, or mouth) with infectious respiratory droplets or fomites.3,26,27 The use of aerosol-generating procedures (such as endotracheal intubation, bronchoscopy, and treatment with aerosolized medication) in hospitals may amplify the transmission of SARS-CoV, and outbreaks have involved more than 100 patients on occasion.3,26-28 SARS-CoV survives for many days when dried on surfaces and in feces at an alkaline pH.33 Although data from direct comparisons are not yet available, a review of previously published data suggests that SARS-CoV may be far more stable than other human respiratory viruses, such as respiratory syncytial virus. The role of fecal–oral transmission is unknown but may be important, given that profuse watery diarrhea is a common feature of the disease and that SARS-CoV is shed in large quantities in stool.
- Mediterraneo10 6y ago
  > "Public health authorities" are all really clear: if you're going to wear PPE you need to do it properly. You are confusing two things here. For preventing certain people in certain contexts from being infected, PPE is important. For preventing the average person walking around from infecting others to the point of upsetting curve-flattening efforts, any kind of face covering (even if it be a scarf or a Buff) will satisfy the requirement in most countries now. Indeed, the public health authorities – at least in Europe which is presently my main concern – are very clear here: the authorities overall are calling for masks to be required only in shops or on public transportation. Countries like Poland and the Czech Republic which require masks to be worn at all times in public are outliers. (And I expect their rules to soon be harmonized with the less strict countries. De facto in Poland the outdoor requirement is not even being strictly enforced outside the major cities).
- cwzwarich 6y ago
  > No. "Public health authorities" are all really clear: if you're going to wear PPE you need to do it properly. DIY cloth masks are not PPE, they're theatre, so it doesn't really matter whether you wear it or not. Even the CDC is now promoting cloth masks: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-sick/diy-cloth-face-coverings.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-si...
- pjc50 6y ago
  There's some evidence that countries which chose to promote or mandate masks early have low infection rates. Although there are a lot of confounding variables. https://www.thelocal.com/20200405/coronavirus-and-face-masks-how-countries-have-changed-their-advice https://www.thelocal.com/20200405/coronavirus-and-face-masks...
Marsymars 6y ago
> People should heed their local authorities on what to do, but I am troubled by the moral panic where posters such the above are insisting on even more stringent behavior than required by the public-health authorities. My public health authority does say you must wash hands before putting on, before taking off, and after taking off a non-medical face mask.
- Mediterraneo10 6y ago
  While your local authorities may have voiced such a recommendation for people to follow, as far as I know, no country which has mandated mask usage, is requiring specific behavior around the donning and doffing of that mask. (Please point to specific legislation if this really is the case where you are.) If there is no requirement and enforcement mechanism around a certain behaviour, then IMHO it is excessive for any of us here to complain that the general public is not observing that behaviour. We can only expect the general public to observe any restrictions to the least possible degree; only if there is a hard rule that is being enforced will society overall heed it. Public-health authorities generally know this, and so if they are not pushing for certain behavior to be actively enforced, then that behavior likely matters less to curve-flattening efforts than you might assume.
  - Marsymars 6y ago
    Oh, there's no mandated use here, but the official guidance on how to wear masks is pretty clear: "you must wash your hands immediately before putting it on, before taking it off, and immediately after taking it off" I wasn't really complaining, I was positing a mechanism for the OP's question of "How are people catching COVID-19 [despite masks and social distancing]?"

DanBC 6y ago

> Overall, public-health authorities do not believe that people pulling down their mask in the open air to eat or talk on their phone, will significantly change the infection curve for the worst. No. "Public health authorities" are all really clear: if you're going to wear PPE you need to do it properly. DIY cloth masks are not PPE, they're theatre, so it doesn't really matter whether you wear it or not. > With regard to hand-washing, touching things is now seen as so relatively unlikely a form of transmission This is untrue. Some people on HN are fixated on droplets and aerosols, but we know that fomites are a significant risk. https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMra032498 https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMra032498 > The primary mode of transmission appears to be through direct or indirect contact of mucous membrane (eyes, nose, or mouth) with infectious respiratory droplets or fomites.3,26,27 The use of aerosol-generating procedures (such as endotracheal intubation, bronchoscopy, and treatment with aerosolized medication) in hospitals may amplify the transmission of SARS-CoV, and outbreaks have involved more than 100 patients on occasion.3,26-28 SARS-CoV survives for many days when dried on surfaces and in feces at an alkaline pH.33 Although data from direct comparisons are not yet available, a review of previously published data suggests that SARS-CoV may be far more stable than other human respiratory viruses, such as respiratory syncytial virus. The role of fecal–oral transmission is unknown but may be important, given that profuse watery diarrhea is a common feature of the disease and that SARS-CoV is shed in large quantities in stool.

Mediterraneo10 6y ago
> "Public health authorities" are all really clear: if you're going to wear PPE you need to do it properly. You are confusing two things here. For preventing certain people in certain contexts from being infected, PPE is important. For preventing the average person walking around from infecting others to the point of upsetting curve-flattening efforts, any kind of face covering (even if it be a scarf or a Buff) will satisfy the requirement in most countries now. Indeed, the public health authorities – at least in Europe which is presently my main concern – are very clear here: the authorities overall are calling for masks to be required only in shops or on public transportation. Countries like Poland and the Czech Republic which require masks to be worn at all times in public are outliers. (And I expect their rules to soon be harmonized with the less strict countries. De facto in Poland the outdoor requirement is not even being strictly enforced outside the major cities).
cwzwarich 6y ago
> No. "Public health authorities" are all really clear: if you're going to wear PPE you need to do it properly. DIY cloth masks are not PPE, they're theatre, so it doesn't really matter whether you wear it or not. Even the CDC is now promoting cloth masks: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-sick/diy-cloth-face-coverings.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-si...
pjc50 6y ago
There's some evidence that countries which chose to promote or mandate masks early have low infection rates. Although there are a lot of confounding variables. https://www.thelocal.com/20200405/coronavirus-and-face-masks-how-countries-have-changed-their-advice https://www.thelocal.com/20200405/coronavirus-and-face-masks...

Marsymars 6y ago

> People should heed their local authorities on what to do, but I am troubled by the moral panic where posters such the above are insisting on even more stringent behavior than required by the public-health authorities. My public health authority does say you must wash hands before putting on, before taking off, and after taking off a non-medical face mask.

Mediterraneo10 6y ago
While your local authorities may have voiced such a recommendation for people to follow, as far as I know, no country which has mandated mask usage, is requiring specific behavior around the donning and doffing of that mask. (Please point to specific legislation if this really is the case where you are.) If there is no requirement and enforcement mechanism around a certain behaviour, then IMHO it is excessive for any of us here to complain that the general public is not observing that behaviour. We can only expect the general public to observe any restrictions to the least possible degree; only if there is a hard rule that is being enforced will society overall heed it. Public-health authorities generally know this, and so if they are not pushing for certain behavior to be actively enforced, then that behavior likely matters less to curve-flattening efforts than you might assume.
- Marsymars 6y ago
  Oh, there's no mandated use here, but the official guidance on how to wear masks is pretty clear: "you must wash your hands immediately before putting it on, before taking it off, and immediately after taking it off" I wasn't really complaining, I was positing a mechanism for the OP's question of "How are people catching COVID-19 [despite masks and social distancing]?"