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From what I've seen - income disparity and burdensome regulations go hand in hand. Being rich, I can afford the regulations. A new immigrant? Not so much. And

From what I've seen - income disparity and burdensome regulations go hand in hand. Being rich, I can afford the regulations. A new immigrant? Not so much. And if my poorer immigrant competition starts climbing up the ladder by ignoring the regulations, I can report them and have them shut down.

jeffbee 6y ago
Can you bring that around to the topic? We're discussing a billionaire, born into great wealth, who is whining that the jurisdiction representing his workforce won't permit him to expose ten thousand people to an infectious disease. Who is burdened here, and why?
- DuskStar 6y ago
  > won't permit him to expose ten thousand people to an infectious disease. How low of an IFR would it take before you accepted that exposure? Would incidentally exposing them to the common cold be ok? It's not the infections that matter - it's the deaths. And, with Tesla's 10k factory workers and the assumption that they're heathy people between 20 and 60, you'd see somewhere between 1 and 50 deaths. (Assuming that Italy's health care worker CFR is representative) Is this worth it? I don't know. But there's a point where it would be.
  - samcday 6y ago
    Take a moment to consider what you seem to be saying here. You’re essentially pondering if it should be okay for a billionaire industrialist to willingly sacrifice the lives of between 1-50 people. > How low of an IFR would it take before you accepted that exposure? If we lived in a sane world that valued EVERY individual human life above the self-serving dreams of an egotistical, arrogant sociopath, the answer would be zero. > Would incidentally exposing them to the common cold be ok? Such a question screams for a sarcastic answer: in case you haven’t noticed, Covid-19 is not the common cold.
    - DuskStar 6y ago
      > You’re essentially pondering if it should be okay for a billionaire industrialist to willingly sacrifice the lives of between 1-50 people. I was unaware that Tesla workers were slaves. Unless they aren't - in which case they would have the option to not return yet. > If we lived in a sane world that valued EVERY individual human life above the self-serving dreams of an egotistical, arrogant sociopath, the answer would be zero. Well, factories kill people in accidents. Not often, but it happens. Does that mean we can never reopen factories, even without disease? > Such a question screams for a sarcastic answer: in case you haven’t noticed, Covid-19 is not the common cold. No, it isn't. But this is a thought experiment - and an example of orgs willingly exposing masses of people to a disease.
    - IG_Semmelweiss 6y ago
      In the real world, we are all making choices that involve a degree of risk. Whether to fly for that business meeting. Whether to eat at a restaurant. Even if you dont think it, there is risk. Yes, even going to work entails risk. What is important is that (a) it is voluntary and (b) it is disclosed. Your comment is very insensitive. You come from a position of priviledge. Not everyone has the option to stop working. People have mouths to feed. Debts to pay. Parents to support. I am sure there is more than 1 tesla worker that is anxious to return back to work. Why would you hold them back? Do you really think you know better than the person affected ?
- mlindner 6y ago
  In all the internal emails that have been leaked with regards to this they always say "don't come in if you don't feel safe doing so".
- deathgrips 6y ago
  Every workplace exposes people to infectious diseases, covid19 or not. Don't companies do risk management all the time? What's the acceptable level of risk?
threatofrain 6y ago
Also the poor are the ones who would seriously consider morally unusual choices such as burning your life for money. The middle and upper classes find such ways repugnant and stressful and seek to ensure that such moral trade-offs are not possible. Is it really bad to have unregulated food? Is it really bad to have regulated legal service? Unregulated medicine? The poor might have a difference of opinion on the flexible trade between money and life.
- humanrebar 6y ago
  The rich make "morally unusual" choices, too. Like fraud, both legal and illegal. Also, receiving massive bailouts instead of living with bad gambles. Many people seek regulatory moats or corrupt relationships to avoid competition. Also morally questionable.

jeffbee 6y ago

Can you bring that around to the topic? We're discussing a billionaire, born into great wealth, who is whining that the jurisdiction representing his workforce won't permit him to expose ten thousand people to an infectious disease. Who is burdened here, and why?

DuskStar 6y ago
> won't permit him to expose ten thousand people to an infectious disease. How low of an IFR would it take before you accepted that exposure? Would incidentally exposing them to the common cold be ok? It's not the infections that matter - it's the deaths. And, with Tesla's 10k factory workers and the assumption that they're heathy people between 20 and 60, you'd see somewhere between 1 and 50 deaths. (Assuming that Italy's health care worker CFR is representative) Is this worth it? I don't know. But there's a point where it would be.
- samcday 6y ago
  Take a moment to consider what you seem to be saying here. You’re essentially pondering if it should be okay for a billionaire industrialist to willingly sacrifice the lives of between 1-50 people. > How low of an IFR would it take before you accepted that exposure? If we lived in a sane world that valued EVERY individual human life above the self-serving dreams of an egotistical, arrogant sociopath, the answer would be zero. > Would incidentally exposing them to the common cold be ok? Such a question screams for a sarcastic answer: in case you haven’t noticed, Covid-19 is not the common cold.
  - DuskStar 6y ago
    > You’re essentially pondering if it should be okay for a billionaire industrialist to willingly sacrifice the lives of between 1-50 people. I was unaware that Tesla workers were slaves. Unless they aren't - in which case they would have the option to not return yet. > If we lived in a sane world that valued EVERY individual human life above the self-serving dreams of an egotistical, arrogant sociopath, the answer would be zero. Well, factories kill people in accidents. Not often, but it happens. Does that mean we can never reopen factories, even without disease? > Such a question screams for a sarcastic answer: in case you haven’t noticed, Covid-19 is not the common cold. No, it isn't. But this is a thought experiment - and an example of orgs willingly exposing masses of people to a disease.
  - IG_Semmelweiss 6y ago
    In the real world, we are all making choices that involve a degree of risk. Whether to fly for that business meeting. Whether to eat at a restaurant. Even if you dont think it, there is risk. Yes, even going to work entails risk. What is important is that (a) it is voluntary and (b) it is disclosed. Your comment is very insensitive. You come from a position of priviledge. Not everyone has the option to stop working. People have mouths to feed. Debts to pay. Parents to support. I am sure there is more than 1 tesla worker that is anxious to return back to work. Why would you hold them back? Do you really think you know better than the person affected ?
mlindner 6y ago
In all the internal emails that have been leaked with regards to this they always say "don't come in if you don't feel safe doing so".
deathgrips 6y ago
Every workplace exposes people to infectious diseases, covid19 or not. Don't companies do risk management all the time? What's the acceptable level of risk?

threatofrain 6y ago

Also the poor are the ones who would seriously consider morally unusual choices such as burning your life for money. The middle and upper classes find such ways repugnant and stressful and seek to ensure that such moral trade-offs are not possible. Is it really bad to have unregulated food? Is it really bad to have regulated legal service? Unregulated medicine? The poor might have a difference of opinion on the flexible trade between money and life.

humanrebar 6y ago
The rich make "morally unusual" choices, too. Like fraud, both legal and illegal. Also, receiving massive bailouts instead of living with bad gambles. Many people seek regulatory moats or corrupt relationships to avoid competition. Also morally questionable.