4 ms·

I agree this is an issue in poor areas. As another anecdote, my wife grew up in a poor housing estate in central Scotland, in a household with bad parents and

I agree this is an issue in poor areas. As another anecdote, my wife grew up in a poor housing estate in central Scotland, in a household with bad parents and some domestic violence. There was a fair bit of violence and drugs in the area too. Almost everyone in the area was claiming at least some kind of benefit, and benefit fraud was absolutely rife. I got to know the extended family quite well over time. Almost every parent seemed determined to continue the cycle of poverty, and pushed their children to sign up for a council house as soon as they were 16. Fraudulent tactics were often used to get their kids further up the waiting list, or to get their kids into newer/better housing once they had a house. One father set fire to his daughter's house with the hope she'd be moved into a better house. Another smashed in the windows of his son's house, so they could claim he was in danger from imaginary drug dealers in the area. My wife (and indeed her brother) were however determined to get a decent education and do better, in spite of their parents. She applied to university, but her mother hid the acceptance letter and tried to push her into a crappy low/paid job and a council house. Thankfully my wife came across the letter my chance, and her life has been very different from that of her parents.

champagneben 7y ago
Feel free to not respond as this might be too personal, but I'm very interested. Does your wife keep in contact with her mother? Presumably yes, as you have gotten to know them?
- GordonS 7y ago
  This all happened a long while back, but yes, she has kept in touch all that time. But they don't get on at all, and have a very turbulent relationship. I think she feels a sense of familial duty more than anything else.
  - winter_blue 7y ago
    It was definitely truly horrible to read that her mom hid her acceptance letter from her. What sort of thing would make someone do that? What kind of person doesn’t wish best for their children, and tries to make their life bad instead? It’s just too much.
    - icelancer 7y ago
      Crab bucket mentality. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_mentality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_mentality
      - brnt 7y ago
        While nowhere near GP's example, I come from a working class background where this metafor feels instantly fitting. Perhaps the middle ages made it so that groups who did not pull their peers back down died out / were killed by the ruling classes.
        Nasrudith 7y ago
        Really that toxic dynamic is also explained by reproductive habits - everyone not desirable for having X looks bad in comparison. It is a way deeper mental flaw in humanity along with rationalizing obviously terrible things to avoid cognitive dissonance and extra effort.
    - scottLobster 7y ago
      I'm in an interesting position where I come from the white-collar upper middle class, but work with a lot of 1st generation white-collars. That mentality sticks even among some of those who manage to elevate themselves. For instance, I'm recently married and the wife and I are looking into starting a family. My co-workers know we want kids, and while about 75% are supportive, there's a couple who have marital/family issues who feed me a daily stream of [insert story about how messed up their marriage/kids are] followed by "so, you sure you still want kids?" in a half-serious tone. It's a minor annoyance and I just commiserate with the miserable story and laugh it off. But, while I know I'm not supposed to judge as a non-parent there's a few glaringly, blindingly obvious failures of well-intentioned but horribly executed parenting/marriage handling in these stories that set my teeth on edge. Stuff even my parents for all their weaknesses would never have done. When I try to politely nudge back on some of the more egregious points I just get ignored and they keep talking, even when I'm backed up by one of the parents in my team. They seem convinced that they're doing everything the best way it could possibly be done and there's no behavior change on their part that could make it better. On a possibly related note, they're also the team members with the worst health and some of the messiest (if technically functional) code I've ever read. I always wondered where that mentality came from, reading this thread has shed some light on that, given what I know about how they grew up.
WalterBright 7y ago
I've seen this effect often in various forms. If Bob and Ted start at the same point, and Bob becomes more successful than Ted, Ted will try to undermine Bob's success. The reason is Ted blames circumstance for his failure, and Bob's success makes it hard for Ted to blame circumstance. By undermining Bob's success, Ted can comfortably continue to blame circumstance.
mdocherty 7y ago
I have a book suggestion for you if you are interested in learning more about this. I grew up in Scotland and I am very familiar with what you are talking about. https://www.amazon.com/Life-Bottom-Worldview-Makes-Underclass/dp/1566635055 https://www.amazon.com/Life-Bottom-Worldview-Makes-Underclas...
abstractbarista 7y ago
Man, that is sad. "You get more of what you subsidize."
MH15 7y ago
If you look past the comedy, this is exactly how the show Trailer Park Boys works. Deep down, the show is about the cycle of poverty.

champagneben 7y ago

Feel free to not respond as this might be too personal, but I'm very interested. Does your wife keep in contact with her mother? Presumably yes, as you have gotten to know them?

GordonS 7y ago
This all happened a long while back, but yes, she has kept in touch all that time. But they don't get on at all, and have a very turbulent relationship. I think she feels a sense of familial duty more than anything else.
- winter_blue 7y ago
  It was definitely truly horrible to read that her mom hid her acceptance letter from her. What sort of thing would make someone do that? What kind of person doesn’t wish best for their children, and tries to make their life bad instead? It’s just too much.
  - icelancer 7y ago
    Crab bucket mentality. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_mentality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_mentality
    - brnt 7y ago
      While nowhere near GP's example, I come from a working class background where this metafor feels instantly fitting. Perhaps the middle ages made it so that groups who did not pull their peers back down died out / were killed by the ruling classes.
      - Nasrudith 7y ago
        Really that toxic dynamic is also explained by reproductive habits - everyone not desirable for having X looks bad in comparison. It is a way deeper mental flaw in humanity along with rationalizing obviously terrible things to avoid cognitive dissonance and extra effort.
  - scottLobster 7y ago
    I'm in an interesting position where I come from the white-collar upper middle class, but work with a lot of 1st generation white-collars. That mentality sticks even among some of those who manage to elevate themselves. For instance, I'm recently married and the wife and I are looking into starting a family. My co-workers know we want kids, and while about 75% are supportive, there's a couple who have marital/family issues who feed me a daily stream of [insert story about how messed up their marriage/kids are] followed by "so, you sure you still want kids?" in a half-serious tone. It's a minor annoyance and I just commiserate with the miserable story and laugh it off. But, while I know I'm not supposed to judge as a non-parent there's a few glaringly, blindingly obvious failures of well-intentioned but horribly executed parenting/marriage handling in these stories that set my teeth on edge. Stuff even my parents for all their weaknesses would never have done. When I try to politely nudge back on some of the more egregious points I just get ignored and they keep talking, even when I'm backed up by one of the parents in my team. They seem convinced that they're doing everything the best way it could possibly be done and there's no behavior change on their part that could make it better. On a possibly related note, they're also the team members with the worst health and some of the messiest (if technically functional) code I've ever read. I always wondered where that mentality came from, reading this thread has shed some light on that, given what I know about how they grew up.

WalterBright 7y ago

I've seen this effect often in various forms. If Bob and Ted start at the same point, and Bob becomes more successful than Ted, Ted will try to undermine Bob's success. The reason is Ted blames circumstance for his failure, and Bob's success makes it hard for Ted to blame circumstance. By undermining Bob's success, Ted can comfortably continue to blame circumstance.

mdocherty 7y ago

I have a book suggestion for you if you are interested in learning more about this. I grew up in Scotland and I am very familiar with what you are talking about. https://www.amazon.com/Life-Bottom-Worldview-Makes-Underclass/dp/1566635055 https://www.amazon.com/Life-Bottom-Worldview-Makes-Underclas...

abstractbarista 7y ago

Man, that is sad. "You get more of what you subsidize."

MH15 7y ago

If you look past the comedy, this is exactly how the show Trailer Park Boys works. Deep down, the show is about the cycle of poverty.