6 ms·

> Counting cards isn’t illegal, but a casino, like any business, has the right to refuse service to anyone. I know players who have been handcuffed, searched an

> Counting cards isn’t illegal, but a casino, like any business, has the right to refuse service to anyone. I know players who have been handcuffed, searched and dragged into windowless back rooms But surely handcuffing someone for doing something that isn't illegal is itself illegal search and detention?

xnyan 6y ago
If you have the need (and I would say cynically if you also have the money and political connections) you can commission a private police force that has (in a limited way) the legal authority to arrest. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_police https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_police
- jandrese 6y ago
  Even the police can't arrest you without probable cause. Until it is illegal to count cards any such arrests would be on shaky legal grounds.
  - smnrchrds 6y ago
    I am not from the US, so bear with me if I am misunderstanding the nuance of the situation. But reading US news, it seems that it is common for police to arrest people for (and only for) resisting arrest. Resisting arrest by definition must occur when attempting for arrest someone. But since the person was arrested for nothing but resisting arrest, the original arrest attempt which was resisted must have been for nothing. It appears that whatever the intent of the law might have been, in practice the police can arrest anyone without need for cause. https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/01/29/382497080/arrested-for-resisting-arrest-yes-its-possible https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/01/29/382497080...
    - thechao 6y ago
      Not really. If you’re being arrested (the requirement in order to be resisting), you’re already in deep trouble. OTOH, the flip side (resisting an unlawful arrest) is serious stuff for the arresting officer. In Texas, resisting arrest is no more than 1 year of jail & a fine. Unlawful arrest is going to start at 10 years of prison, and climb rapidly from there. There’s currently a case of the latter working it’s way through the courts in Dallas. The officer is looking at decades right now.
      - xnyan 6y ago
        People have been charged with resisting arrest after being shot and involuntary twitching their limbs. Unless you have money or power, the police can say you were resisting arrest for any reason and they will be believed, not you.
  - pfortuny 6y ago
    IANAL and just asking. Assuming the Casino sits on private land, I guess they can handcuff you if they “think” you are a danger to their property and that measure is “adequate”.
    - jandrese 6y ago
      They can ask you to leave and then hit you with trespassing if you refuse to go, but they can't just slap you in cuffs and throw you in a concrete room in the back of the casino because you're counting cards. Any money they saved on your gambling would be lost in the kidnapping lawsuit afterward. And if they refuse to cash the chips you can add fraud and theft to the charges.
    - kelnos 6y ago
      They can kick you out and tell you if you return you'll be trespassing, but cuffing someone and detaining them in a back room without any legal authority to do so is kidnapping. And depending on how they physically treat you during that, it might be battery or even assault. I suspect, though, that many/most people in these situations either don't want a run-in with the law, or want to keep a low profile and not make a scene for other reasons, so they'll just go along with it and quietly get out of there.
specialp 6y ago
That treatment, along with the tactics used in this story like Wonging at the table, last occurred/were effective long before the author was born. Typically casinos if they are nice put you on a "flat bet" which makes counting completely useless since profiting on it is predicated on varying your bet. Another thing would be not allowing the player to play blackjack anymore. Usually the harshest punishment is banning the player from the casino, having them cash their chips, and leave. Subsequently coming back would be trespassing then you'd be put in cuffs and brought in the back.
- chongli 6y ago
  You can profit from counting cards with a flat bet. The MIT team did exactly this. The trick is to have counters at multiple tables, all betting a small but flat amount, and floaters that move from table to table while betting large, but also flat, amounts. The counters lose a small but steady amount of money over time while the floaters make large amounts of money by only playing at the tables with favourable counts.
  - londons_explore 6y ago
    Are there any decisions at all for the player in a "flat bet" game? Or is it simply a game of 100% chance then, with all skill/reading your opponent removed?
    - chongli 6y ago
      This is blackjack we’re talking about, not poker. There’s no “reading the opponent”. The opponent is the dealer who hits on a sixteen or less and stays otherwise. For the people with a flat bet (on a card counting team) there’s no decision making at all. They simply follow basic strategy which prescribes exactly what move to make in each situation.
      - slm_HN 6y ago
        In fact there is opponent reading (literally) in Blackjack. The opponent (dealer) must check his hand for blackjack, if the dealer's upcard is a 10 or an Ace, after having dealt the initial two cards to every player. "Hole peeking" is a technique where a teammate stands behind the dealer so they can see the hole card when the dealer checks for blackjack. They then signal this information to the player so he knows the value of the dealer's hand. Hole peeking used to be so common that casinos now have card readers built into the blackjack tables so that the dealers don't have to expose their hole card to check for blackjack. It is/was also possible for a player at the first seat of the table to see a sloppy dealer's hole card when checking for blackjack. This is called "first basing" while using a teammate is generally called spooking.
paulpauper 6y ago
probably more than just counting . collusion , use of computers and other aids, etc.
dehrmann 6y ago
Seems dangerous if you detain the wrong card counter.

xnyan 6y ago

If you have the need (and I would say cynically if you also have the money and political connections) you can commission a private police force that has (in a limited way) the legal authority to arrest. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_police https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_police

jandrese 6y ago
Even the police can't arrest you without probable cause. Until it is illegal to count cards any such arrests would be on shaky legal grounds.
- smnrchrds 6y ago
  I am not from the US, so bear with me if I am misunderstanding the nuance of the situation. But reading US news, it seems that it is common for police to arrest people for (and only for) resisting arrest. Resisting arrest by definition must occur when attempting for arrest someone. But since the person was arrested for nothing but resisting arrest, the original arrest attempt which was resisted must have been for nothing. It appears that whatever the intent of the law might have been, in practice the police can arrest anyone without need for cause. https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/01/29/382497080/arrested-for-resisting-arrest-yes-its-possible https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/01/29/382497080...
  - thechao 6y ago
    Not really. If you’re being arrested (the requirement in order to be resisting), you’re already in deep trouble. OTOH, the flip side (resisting an unlawful arrest) is serious stuff for the arresting officer. In Texas, resisting arrest is no more than 1 year of jail & a fine. Unlawful arrest is going to start at 10 years of prison, and climb rapidly from there. There’s currently a case of the latter working it’s way through the courts in Dallas. The officer is looking at decades right now.
    - xnyan 6y ago
      People have been charged with resisting arrest after being shot and involuntary twitching their limbs. Unless you have money or power, the police can say you were resisting arrest for any reason and they will be believed, not you.
- pfortuny 6y ago
  IANAL and just asking. Assuming the Casino sits on private land, I guess they can handcuff you if they “think” you are a danger to their property and that measure is “adequate”.
  - jandrese 6y ago
    They can ask you to leave and then hit you with trespassing if you refuse to go, but they can't just slap you in cuffs and throw you in a concrete room in the back of the casino because you're counting cards. Any money they saved on your gambling would be lost in the kidnapping lawsuit afterward. And if they refuse to cash the chips you can add fraud and theft to the charges.
  - kelnos 6y ago
    They can kick you out and tell you if you return you'll be trespassing, but cuffing someone and detaining them in a back room without any legal authority to do so is kidnapping. And depending on how they physically treat you during that, it might be battery or even assault. I suspect, though, that many/most people in these situations either don't want a run-in with the law, or want to keep a low profile and not make a scene for other reasons, so they'll just go along with it and quietly get out of there.

specialp 6y ago

That treatment, along with the tactics used in this story like Wonging at the table, last occurred/were effective long before the author was born. Typically casinos if they are nice put you on a "flat bet" which makes counting completely useless since profiting on it is predicated on varying your bet. Another thing would be not allowing the player to play blackjack anymore. Usually the harshest punishment is banning the player from the casino, having them cash their chips, and leave. Subsequently coming back would be trespassing then you'd be put in cuffs and brought in the back.

chongli 6y ago
You can profit from counting cards with a flat bet. The MIT team did exactly this. The trick is to have counters at multiple tables, all betting a small but flat amount, and floaters that move from table to table while betting large, but also flat, amounts. The counters lose a small but steady amount of money over time while the floaters make large amounts of money by only playing at the tables with favourable counts.
- londons_explore 6y ago
  Are there any decisions at all for the player in a "flat bet" game? Or is it simply a game of 100% chance then, with all skill/reading your opponent removed?
  - chongli 6y ago
    This is blackjack we’re talking about, not poker. There’s no “reading the opponent”. The opponent is the dealer who hits on a sixteen or less and stays otherwise. For the people with a flat bet (on a card counting team) there’s no decision making at all. They simply follow basic strategy which prescribes exactly what move to make in each situation.
    - slm_HN 6y ago
      In fact there is opponent reading (literally) in Blackjack. The opponent (dealer) must check his hand for blackjack, if the dealer's upcard is a 10 or an Ace, after having dealt the initial two cards to every player. "Hole peeking" is a technique where a teammate stands behind the dealer so they can see the hole card when the dealer checks for blackjack. They then signal this information to the player so he knows the value of the dealer's hand. Hole peeking used to be so common that casinos now have card readers built into the blackjack tables so that the dealers don't have to expose their hole card to check for blackjack. It is/was also possible for a player at the first seat of the table to see a sloppy dealer's hole card when checking for blackjack. This is called "first basing" while using a teammate is generally called spooking.

paulpauper 6y ago

probably more than just counting . collusion , use of computers and other aids, etc.

dehrmann 6y ago

Seems dangerous if you detain the wrong card counter.