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this is amazing - I'm a map geek and this stuff is catnip for me. I built a, for the time, very good data logging setup for my Jeep and mapped some trails[0] i

this is amazing - I'm a map geek and this stuff is catnip for me. I built a, for the time, very good data logging setup for my Jeep and mapped some trails[0] in 2001. Why? The maps provided by the USFS and the timber leaseholders were (and still are) wrong. I also made a point the first time I was in Europe of renting a car and driving to Baarle-Hertog[1] and walking to all of the enclaves, as well as enclaves within enclaves. [0]: https://github.com/ryjones/Area29SnowmobileTrailMap https://github.com/ryjones/Area29SnowmobileTrailMap [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baarle-Hertog#List_of_enclaves https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baarle-Hertog#List_of_enclaves

pocket_titan 6y ago
I live somewhat near Baarle-Hertog. Normally, there's no real issues with the enclaves, since both Belgium and the Netherlands are in the EU. But the coronavirus has caused national policy to differ, with the funniest example being: shops in Belgium were (some have since been allowed to reopene) forced to close, but the ones in the Netherlands weren't, leading to bizarre situations where shops that crossed over the border (sometimes multiple times) had to 'close' the parts located in Belgium, but not the one in the Netherlands. So you would not be able to buy things located in the 'Belgian area'. Crazy, but cool!
philshem 6y ago
Next project? Enclaves in enclaves in enclaves? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahala_Khagrabari https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahala_Khagrabari Edit: Too late. Ceded to Bangladesh in 2015.
- RyJones 6y ago
  dang. I was ready to go!
lscotte 6y ago
I do search and rescue, and it is amazing how out of date the USFS maps are. The "2016" revision shows roads that haven`t existed in decades. Even the MVUM map is wrong in similar ways, and it`s supposed to be the source of truth.
- ghaff 6y ago
  In general, especially in the western US as I'm sure you know, it's hard to rely on maps to tell you how drive-able very secondary roads are. They can range from being pretty decent for even just a passenger car and mostly just normal driving skills to you'd better have a Jeep and know how to drive it to "Nah. This isn't really a road." With the weather/season/when was the last flash flood entering into the equation as well. There are some very sad stories related to people assuming that a road on a map is actually a road in the way people living around cities generally think of the term.
  - lostapathy 6y ago
    It's too bad there isn't a good way to crowd-source this data and get it back upstream to official maps. I took a drive on what started as a very nice, scenic forest service road in Colorado and ended up in the back of an active cinder mine. We got through the mine ok, but never would have been able to make it back up the mountain the way we came down. I spent the whole time worrying we were going to get stuck behind a locked fence until the workers came back Monday morning.
    - maxerickson 6y ago
      It won't magically take care of upstreaming the data, but you could mark it on OpenStreetMap. access=private in the mine at least.
- driverdan 6y ago
  I've camped in many national forests. The only motor vehicle use maps (MVUM) I've seen that are good are the ones around Bend, OR. All the rest are pretty bad. They're supposed to indicate where camping is and isn't allowed. Very few do. They also don't indicate road quality well. Each district is responsible for their maps which is why quality varies. They really need to standardize and enforce those standards properly.
- jcrawfordor 6y ago
  Of all the federal agencies, the Forest Service seems to produce the worst maps. Not only are they often of dubious quality, they're sometimes very difficult to obtain in the first place. The new "IVM" (https://www.fs.fed.us/ivm/index.html https://www.fs.fed.us/ivm/index.html) helps, it really is leaps and bounds better than anything available before, but for district-produced maps like MVUMs they're not necessarily in IVM, sometimes the only way officially to obtain them is to visit the district office, and then sometimes when you do that the district office has never heard of the map you want or has but can't find a copy.

pocket_titan 6y ago

I live somewhat near Baarle-Hertog. Normally, there's no real issues with the enclaves, since both Belgium and the Netherlands are in the EU. But the coronavirus has caused national policy to differ, with the funniest example being: shops in Belgium were (some have since been allowed to reopene) forced to close, but the ones in the Netherlands weren't, leading to bizarre situations where shops that crossed over the border (sometimes multiple times) had to 'close' the parts located in Belgium, but not the one in the Netherlands. So you would not be able to buy things located in the 'Belgian area'. Crazy, but cool!

philshem 6y ago

Next project? Enclaves in enclaves in enclaves? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahala_Khagrabari https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahala_Khagrabari Edit: Too late. Ceded to Bangladesh in 2015.

RyJones 6y ago
dang. I was ready to go!

lscotte 6y ago

I do search and rescue, and it is amazing how out of date the USFS maps are. The "2016" revision shows roads that haven`t existed in decades. Even the MVUM map is wrong in similar ways, and it`s supposed to be the source of truth.

ghaff 6y ago
In general, especially in the western US as I'm sure you know, it's hard to rely on maps to tell you how drive-able very secondary roads are. They can range from being pretty decent for even just a passenger car and mostly just normal driving skills to you'd better have a Jeep and know how to drive it to "Nah. This isn't really a road." With the weather/season/when was the last flash flood entering into the equation as well. There are some very sad stories related to people assuming that a road on a map is actually a road in the way people living around cities generally think of the term.
- lostapathy 6y ago
  It's too bad there isn't a good way to crowd-source this data and get it back upstream to official maps. I took a drive on what started as a very nice, scenic forest service road in Colorado and ended up in the back of an active cinder mine. We got through the mine ok, but never would have been able to make it back up the mountain the way we came down. I spent the whole time worrying we were going to get stuck behind a locked fence until the workers came back Monday morning.
  - maxerickson 6y ago
    It won't magically take care of upstreaming the data, but you could mark it on OpenStreetMap. access=private in the mine at least.
driverdan 6y ago
I've camped in many national forests. The only motor vehicle use maps (MVUM) I've seen that are good are the ones around Bend, OR. All the rest are pretty bad. They're supposed to indicate where camping is and isn't allowed. Very few do. They also don't indicate road quality well. Each district is responsible for their maps which is why quality varies. They really need to standardize and enforce those standards properly.
jcrawfordor 6y ago
Of all the federal agencies, the Forest Service seems to produce the worst maps. Not only are they often of dubious quality, they're sometimes very difficult to obtain in the first place. The new "IVM" (https://www.fs.fed.us/ivm/index.html https://www.fs.fed.us/ivm/index.html) helps, it really is leaps and bounds better than anything available before, but for district-produced maps like MVUMs they're not necessarily in IVM, sometimes the only way officially to obtain them is to visit the district office, and then sometimes when you do that the district office has never heard of the map you want or has but can't find a copy.