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> This doesn't make either of us better, both should be respected as equal. I think we are agreeing. That's why I highlighted more attractive to [singleton] w

> This doesn't make either of us better, both should be respected as equal. I think we are agreeing. That's why I highlighted more attractive to [singleton] when you could be more inclusive by avoiding singletons. Why shouldn't a field be attractive to everyone - blind, deaf, disabled etc equally? Imo, focusing on singletons is detrimental because by doing so, you will end up discriminating automatically because there will always be other groups that you won't or don't see.

dijit 6y ago
I think we’re weaker for not including someone because of those traits either. Why focus on women now? Because there’s a lot of women in the world and they seem to not like this field. I don’t really have a good answer, I thought Damores memo was pretty good and I thought it might provoke the powers that be to approach the distribution of underrepresented factions a little better. For instance, if you want to hire blind people (and you should want to hire a few blind people) then offering accessibly tools to them is a no-brainer. And if you’re not getting any applicants, maybe you should look at why. Maybe your job board can’t be read by blind people. (To keep the analogy going).
- searchableguy 6y ago
  > Because there’s a lot of women in the world and they seem to not like this field. Source. I have seen few and they do show women working in the field not liking it. The problem with that is it could be those women are outliers given the gender ratio in some CS fields (I will ignore non biological genders), the field could be attractive but don't have good working conditions for women, women don't have much interest etc. All of those can be true and change your steps to make the field more attractive. As an example, you can look into construction field which is heavily dominated by men and women in the field feels the same but outside, it's a different story in terms of interest. How do you make construction work more attractive for women? I am curious to hear your opinion about below too. What are the problems do you see with this approach? - You vote with your job. If you don't like things, quit. Either the people working at the company are discriminatory and don't care or you are the problematic one. If you think you are right that a big company discriminates openly, then wouldn't you have to admit that most people at your company don't care about discrimination as much as their paycheck or they are discriminatory themselves. If a company can easily replace employees, then the society doesn't value equality. If we had UBI, wouldn't discrimination of any kind be detrimental given that workers wouldn't be forced to work for low wages and companies which discriminate based on pseudoscience be at a disadvantage because they won't get talent that other companies can. Is there any reason why this wouldn't work? Why are people not pursuing UBI for gender equality?
  - dijit 6y ago
    > Source. Well, what I mean is that we're not even close to a gender parity, it would be fine at 35-40% female in my opinion but the industry is closer to 14-25% (depending on country) and to me that indicates a problem. I think quota's and the extreme bias towards education programs that favour women is problematic though, in my opinion it infantilises Women which I dislike because I really believe women are just as capable as men in this field. That's why I liked Damores memo, it spoke to the idea that instead of having quotas we should seek to bring in a more human centred approach to asking the question: what do women bring uniquely to the table and how can we ensure that women know that this is desirable and that they're welcome. Killing the trope that Tech work is isolationist was one example from the memo that would likely cause some traction. > As an example, you can look into construction field which is heavily dominated by men and women in the field feels the same but outside, it's a different story in terms of interest. > How do you make construction work more attractive for women? I think drawing a parallel to construction is a fine one, but I would argue instead for Architecture. Construction doesn't need a diverse set of views, neither does nursing or mining. But Architecture does because the consumers of architecture is everyone. And I think that's the crucial difference here: things that are designed for everyone should have a diverse set of eyes on them.
    - pinkfoot 6y ago
      > things that are designed for everyone should have a diverse set of eyes on them. Teaching, especially pre-school teaching, is going to be tough to make attractive for men. And for a lot of parents too.
      - dijit 6y ago
        I agree, this needs to be fixed also. But teaching isn't my industry. One of the teachers I most learned from was male, he actually sparked my interest in computers because he ran an after school computer club for 20 pence.. which for a poor household such as mine was affordable..
        6y ago
XorNot 6y ago
Whataboutism is a time-honored tradition to dismiss the concerns of a marginalized group while intending to do absolutely nothing about any other.

dijit 6y ago

I think we’re weaker for not including someone because of those traits either. Why focus on women now? Because there’s a lot of women in the world and they seem to not like this field. I don’t really have a good answer, I thought Damores memo was pretty good and I thought it might provoke the powers that be to approach the distribution of underrepresented factions a little better. For instance, if you want to hire blind people (and you should want to hire a few blind people) then offering accessibly tools to them is a no-brainer. And if you’re not getting any applicants, maybe you should look at why. Maybe your job board can’t be read by blind people. (To keep the analogy going).

searchableguy 6y ago
> Because there’s a lot of women in the world and they seem to not like this field. Source. I have seen few and they do show women working in the field not liking it. The problem with that is it could be those women are outliers given the gender ratio in some CS fields (I will ignore non biological genders), the field could be attractive but don't have good working conditions for women, women don't have much interest etc. All of those can be true and change your steps to make the field more attractive. As an example, you can look into construction field which is heavily dominated by men and women in the field feels the same but outside, it's a different story in terms of interest. How do you make construction work more attractive for women? I am curious to hear your opinion about below too. What are the problems do you see with this approach? - You vote with your job. If you don't like things, quit. Either the people working at the company are discriminatory and don't care or you are the problematic one. If you think you are right that a big company discriminates openly, then wouldn't you have to admit that most people at your company don't care about discrimination as much as their paycheck or they are discriminatory themselves. If a company can easily replace employees, then the society doesn't value equality. If we had UBI, wouldn't discrimination of any kind be detrimental given that workers wouldn't be forced to work for low wages and companies which discriminate based on pseudoscience be at a disadvantage because they won't get talent that other companies can. Is there any reason why this wouldn't work? Why are people not pursuing UBI for gender equality?
- dijit 6y ago
  > Source. Well, what I mean is that we're not even close to a gender parity, it would be fine at 35-40% female in my opinion but the industry is closer to 14-25% (depending on country) and to me that indicates a problem. I think quota's and the extreme bias towards education programs that favour women is problematic though, in my opinion it infantilises Women which I dislike because I really believe women are just as capable as men in this field. That's why I liked Damores memo, it spoke to the idea that instead of having quotas we should seek to bring in a more human centred approach to asking the question: what do women bring uniquely to the table and how can we ensure that women know that this is desirable and that they're welcome. Killing the trope that Tech work is isolationist was one example from the memo that would likely cause some traction. > As an example, you can look into construction field which is heavily dominated by men and women in the field feels the same but outside, it's a different story in terms of interest. > How do you make construction work more attractive for women? I think drawing a parallel to construction is a fine one, but I would argue instead for Architecture. Construction doesn't need a diverse set of views, neither does nursing or mining. But Architecture does because the consumers of architecture is everyone. And I think that's the crucial difference here: things that are designed for everyone should have a diverse set of eyes on them.
  - pinkfoot 6y ago
    > things that are designed for everyone should have a diverse set of eyes on them. Teaching, especially pre-school teaching, is going to be tough to make attractive for men. And for a lot of parents too.
    - dijit 6y ago
      I agree, this needs to be fixed also. But teaching isn't my industry. One of the teachers I most learned from was male, he actually sparked my interest in computers because he ran an after school computer club for 20 pence.. which for a poor household such as mine was affordable..
      - 6y ago

XorNot 6y ago

Whataboutism is a time-honored tradition to dismiss the concerns of a marginalized group while intending to do absolutely nothing about any other.