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You appear to be conflating the two Indochina wars, and seem to be claiming I said America didn’t intervene when I used the expression “American intervention” s

You appear to be conflating the two Indochina wars, and seem to be claiming I said America didn’t intervene when I used the expression “American intervention” so I’m not sure we’re even going to be able to find a common fact base to discuss this. > It's a pretty easy argument there would have been many, many fewer civilian casualties without US involvement. The history of Communism in Asia would like a word with you.

ahelwer 6y ago
I'm not conflating them, it's just impossible to talk about one without the other; it was pretty much just one long war with America steadily increasing its involvement. Given that communism actually won in Vietnam, we don't even have to work with hypotheticals. There were certainly deaths but nothing to the level of the death toll American military power exacted on the populace. Regarding the word intervene what I meant is that I believe it is not a good descriptor of what the US did. Makes it sound like some kind of spontaneous humanitarian mission rather than them undemocratically propping up a failing state.
- rumanator 6y ago
  > Given that communism actually won in Vietnam, we don't even have to work with hypotheticals. There were certainly deaths but nothing to the level of the death toll American military power exacted on the populace. Have you ever heard of the Khmer rouge in Cambodja, and how north Vietnam played a fundamental role establishing it?
  - pinkfoot 6y ago
    You also have to factor in how much the US bombing of Cambodia led to the conditions ripe for the Khmer Rouge. IIRC Cambodia is the most bombed country in history.
    - rumanator 6y ago
      You are jokig, right? I mean, the Vietnam and China-backed communist regime of neighboring Cambodja, who murdered millions implementing the same political reforms that killed millions in communist China, is only guilty of crimes against humanity because the US bombed them? Is that your argument?
      - DiogenesKynikos 6y ago
        And yet it was Vietnam that overthrew the Khmer Rouge, which was supported by China and the US. The ideology of the Khmer Rouge was very different from that of the Viet Minh. It was an ideology that demonized industry, cities and workers - all very much the opposite of the ideology of the Viet Minh (and of most of the Communist Party of China). It's not for nothing that the Khmer Rouge ideology has been called "Stone-Age Communism."
        rumanator 6y ago
        > And yet it was Vietnam that overthrew the Khmer Rouge ...in response to the Khmer Rouge's attacks on Vietnam. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambodian%E2%80%93Vietnamese_War https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambodian%E2%80%93Vietnamese... > which was supported by China and the US. Vietnam was concerned Cambodja's regime was too China-friendly, but the millions being killed under the banner of advancing socialism did not featured as a pressing concern by neither China nor Vietnam.
        DiogenesKynikos 6y ago
        The Khmer Rouge's ideology had almost nothing in common with the ideology of the Vietnamese Communists, or really any Marxist movement. It's difficult to see how an ideology that is intensely hostile towards all forms of industrial society and even towards the very existence of cities has anything to do with an ideology that has rapid industrial development as one of its central pillars. After the Vietnamese overthrew the Khmer Rouge, they put a very different type of government in place. There were, of course, geopolitical calculations on all sides, which is why the United States and China supported the Khmer Rouge. I don't think moral revulsion alone often leads any government to declare war on another.

ahelwer 6y ago

I'm not conflating them, it's just impossible to talk about one without the other; it was pretty much just one long war with America steadily increasing its involvement. Given that communism actually won in Vietnam, we don't even have to work with hypotheticals. There were certainly deaths but nothing to the level of the death toll American military power exacted on the populace. Regarding the word intervene what I meant is that I believe it is not a good descriptor of what the US did. Makes it sound like some kind of spontaneous humanitarian mission rather than them undemocratically propping up a failing state.

rumanator 6y ago
> Given that communism actually won in Vietnam, we don't even have to work with hypotheticals. There were certainly deaths but nothing to the level of the death toll American military power exacted on the populace. Have you ever heard of the Khmer rouge in Cambodja, and how north Vietnam played a fundamental role establishing it?
- pinkfoot 6y ago
  You also have to factor in how much the US bombing of Cambodia led to the conditions ripe for the Khmer Rouge. IIRC Cambodia is the most bombed country in history.
  - rumanator 6y ago
    You are jokig, right? I mean, the Vietnam and China-backed communist regime of neighboring Cambodja, who murdered millions implementing the same political reforms that killed millions in communist China, is only guilty of crimes against humanity because the US bombed them? Is that your argument?
    - DiogenesKynikos 6y ago
      And yet it was Vietnam that overthrew the Khmer Rouge, which was supported by China and the US. The ideology of the Khmer Rouge was very different from that of the Viet Minh. It was an ideology that demonized industry, cities and workers - all very much the opposite of the ideology of the Viet Minh (and of most of the Communist Party of China). It's not for nothing that the Khmer Rouge ideology has been called "Stone-Age Communism."
      - rumanator 6y ago
        > And yet it was Vietnam that overthrew the Khmer Rouge ...in response to the Khmer Rouge's attacks on Vietnam. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambodian%E2%80%93Vietnamese_War https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambodian%E2%80%93Vietnamese... > which was supported by China and the US. Vietnam was concerned Cambodja's regime was too China-friendly, but the millions being killed under the banner of advancing socialism did not featured as a pressing concern by neither China nor Vietnam.
        DiogenesKynikos 6y ago
        The Khmer Rouge's ideology had almost nothing in common with the ideology of the Vietnamese Communists, or really any Marxist movement. It's difficult to see how an ideology that is intensely hostile towards all forms of industrial society and even towards the very existence of cities has anything to do with an ideology that has rapid industrial development as one of its central pillars. After the Vietnamese overthrew the Khmer Rouge, they put a very different type of government in place. There were, of course, geopolitical calculations on all sides, which is why the United States and China supported the Khmer Rouge. I don't think moral revulsion alone often leads any government to declare war on another.