3 ms·

Any kind of app where you might reach for a framework. The point is to have a reasonable contrast between "here's how you do it with a framework, here's how you

Any kind of app where you might reach for a framework. The point is to have a reasonable contrast between "here's how you do it with a framework, here's how you do it without one". I think size is important, as I can imagine that the benefits of a framework might show when there's more to do. Personally I'd think of a web app, since this is one place the discussion comes up a lot, but I don't know that's a requirement (I also think the idea that you can build command line tools out of a handful of libraries with no framework is pretty widely accepted).

brundolf 6y ago
It has occurred to me in the past that frameworks are often just a way of publicizing a pattern, and that there could be room for something like "open source patterns" that people could reach for and implement themselves without getting locked into an actual dependency and loading a bunch of extra code. That sounds kind of like what you're suggesting.
Orou 6y ago
I'd love to see this as well. Web apps seem really tricky when it comes to not using frameworks though. You can use JQuery - it's tried and true - but it also seems to be on the way out. Great if you know it, but is it worth learning if you don't? I had the unfortunate experience of building a static site using Nuxt recently which included Jupyter Notebook exports as html files. I ran into so many problems that the complexities of the framework quickly overshadowed the conveniences. Makes me wish I tried doing everything in vanilla JS instead - I might at least have learned something transferable to other projects that way.
- BossingAround 6y ago
  > Great if you know it, but is it worth learning if you don't? The main thing with a lot of these small web libraries (I'd consider JQuery a library) is that they are incredibly easy to learn. You can be productive with JQuery within an afternoon. You can be productive with React within a weekend or two. These are not Java frameworks with Hibernate, XML configuration, database drivers, migration paths, etc etc. You pick one up, do what you need to do, and forget it within a week if you so desire. That said, if you use JQuery in 2020, with a new project, the vast majority of frontend devs I know would consider that a serious code smell (as in, you don't know JS and that's the reason you have to result to JQuery). Check [1] for some info about vanilla JS. [1] http://youmightnotneedjquery.com/ http://youmightnotneedjquery.com/

brundolf 6y ago

It has occurred to me in the past that frameworks are often just a way of publicizing a pattern, and that there could be room for something like "open source patterns" that people could reach for and implement themselves without getting locked into an actual dependency and loading a bunch of extra code. That sounds kind of like what you're suggesting.

Orou 6y ago

I'd love to see this as well. Web apps seem really tricky when it comes to not using frameworks though. You can use JQuery - it's tried and true - but it also seems to be on the way out. Great if you know it, but is it worth learning if you don't? I had the unfortunate experience of building a static site using Nuxt recently which included Jupyter Notebook exports as html files. I ran into so many problems that the complexities of the framework quickly overshadowed the conveniences. Makes me wish I tried doing everything in vanilla JS instead - I might at least have learned something transferable to other projects that way.

BossingAround 6y ago
> Great if you know it, but is it worth learning if you don't? The main thing with a lot of these small web libraries (I'd consider JQuery a library) is that they are incredibly easy to learn. You can be productive with JQuery within an afternoon. You can be productive with React within a weekend or two. These are not Java frameworks with Hibernate, XML configuration, database drivers, migration paths, etc etc. You pick one up, do what you need to do, and forget it within a week if you so desire. That said, if you use JQuery in 2020, with a new project, the vast majority of frontend devs I know would consider that a serious code smell (as in, you don't know JS and that's the reason you have to result to JQuery). Check [1] for some info about vanilla JS. [1] http://youmightnotneedjquery.com/ http://youmightnotneedjquery.com/