7 ms·

It depends on the model, but I think that your impression of Roomba, either through experience or the technology that the author of this article presented is re

by qchris 6y ago

It depends on the model, but I think that your impression of Roomba, either through experience or the technology that the author of this article presented is really out-of-date. Even on past models, they have Visual Simultaneous Location and Mapping (VSLAM) tech that is far, far beyond dead reckoning. The even more recent version (not sure if there's been a release since) also has persistent maps, so it actually can find itself on the map and choose routes[2]. I'm not sure what exactly the processors are, but considering the supply-chain investments that've gone into mobile processor development for smartphones, I think it's likely unfair to characterize them as "tiny little processors". Disclosure: I did an internship at iRobot a few years ago, although the overwhelming majority of my work wasn't related to Roomba products. [1] https://spectrum.ieee.org/automaton/robotics/home-robots/irobot-brings-visual-mapping-and-navigation-to-the-roomba-980 https://spectrum.ieee.org/automaton/robotics/home-robots/iro... [2] https://spectrum.ieee.org/automaton/robotics/home-robots/new-roomba-i7-features-persistent-maps-room-cleaning https://spectrum.ieee.org/automaton/robotics/home-robots/new...

JoeAltmaier 6y ago
That's a big name. I'm suspicious it means "light intensity map" or something far less interesting than it sounds. Turn a light on or off, and then what? My Shark (ok Not a Roomba) manual says to leave the lights on. I suspect that's because its navigating by light intensity (light fixture bright spots).
- simplyaccont 6y ago
  Roomba usually runs during the day when lights are off and all windows are darkened. If I open windows/turn on lights - there is no difference. Also you can draw on the map (that roomba makes) "no-go" area, and it will obey it.
- qchris 6y ago
  I don't like to be dismissive, but your suspicion isn't well-founded and is very likely based on little or no background research on the topic. If you had, you'd have found that SLAM and VSLAM as a subset is a well-defined category of computer with a strong mathematical background in optical flow and pattern matching on images[0]. You'd have found a number of iRobot patents still in their enforceable time period directly referencing the use of cameras in those algorithms[1][2]. You'd have found marketing materials describing how those systems work that directly correlates with the technology described in those patents[3]. That's based on no special previous knowledge of those materials on my part, just the top few results from a couple minutes of DDG and Google Scholar searches. Implying that is just "a big name" that means "something far less interesting than it sounds" is an uninformed opinion. Plus, even [0], which is 15 years old directly refutes your comments about the effect of lighting. Lighting is helpful because it illuminates the scene that a camera is seeing, in the same way that it's easier to go on a night hike on during a full moon. We don't reference our position off the moon, it just makes it easier to see where we're walking. [0] https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/1570091 https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/1570091 [1] https://patents.google.com/patent/US9286810B2/en https://patents.google.com/patent/US9286810B2/en [2] https://patents.google.com/patent/US9910444B2/en https://patents.google.com/patent/US9910444B2/en [3] https://www.irobot.com/roomba/s-series https://www.irobot.com/roomba/s-series
  - JoeAltmaier 6y ago
    The processors in a Roomba (when I went to the plant a couple years ago) were all around $1. No room in a buck chip for that. Ok I see it uses DSPs which is a budget version of image processing. Looks for moving marks on the walls to gauge distance. Kind of a cut-rate lidar. About what I figured.
    - qchris 6y ago
      Which plant? Which Roomba? According to the materials released by Qualcomm in 2018 (by which point, the Roomba i7 would have already have had lines in that plant), the processor used is a ARQ8009, a quad-core ARM processor commonly used in smartphones[0]. It's tough to find prices because the contracts are negotiated individually, but I'd put money on those chips costing much more than $1.00/piece. Comparing VSLAM to lidar in any way besides saying that they technically can both be used to measure movement is also incorrect, and to actually call it a "kind of a cut-rate lidar" can only be due to a fundamental misunderstanding of VSLAM, lidar, or both. Lidar measures distance along a single axis, with no additional information provided. You get movement by measuring changes in position by directly updating the distance value and inferring position change. It can be made robust by adding multiple lidar sensors, but is subject to weird edge cases with reflective materials or sunlight. VSLAM only can measure change in vehicle position through the estimated position changes of significant image features through time, and provides no information about vehicle distance to the surroundings while the robot is standing still. You'd require stereo vision for that, and that does require more processing power, typically including a GPU like the one included in the NVIDIA Jetsons. You'd also typically use sensor fusion with an IMU, odometry, etc. to help with that. Without stereo vision, you need motion to estimate position, which fundamentally makes VSLAM different from lidar, and makes your claim that it is "kind of a cut-rate lidar" completely false. I'm not sure which DSP acronym you're referring to as a budget version of image processing , but if it has to do with digital signal processing, then yeah, of course. That's kind of the definition. [0] https://www.qualcomm.com/news/onq/2018/12/17/help-qualcomm-technologies-irobot-roomba-i7-robot-vacuum-delivers-more https://www.qualcomm.com/news/onq/2018/12/17/help-qualcomm-t...
      - 6y ago

by qchris 6y ago

JoeAltmaier 6y ago

That's a big name. I'm suspicious it means "light intensity map" or something far less interesting than it sounds. Turn a light on or off, and then what? My Shark (ok Not a Roomba) manual says to leave the lights on. I suspect that's because its navigating by light intensity (light fixture bright spots).

simplyaccont 6y ago
Roomba usually runs during the day when lights are off and all windows are darkened. If I open windows/turn on lights - there is no difference. Also you can draw on the map (that roomba makes) "no-go" area, and it will obey it.
qchris 6y ago
I don't like to be dismissive, but your suspicion isn't well-founded and is very likely based on little or no background research on the topic. If you had, you'd have found that SLAM and VSLAM as a subset is a well-defined category of computer with a strong mathematical background in optical flow and pattern matching on images[0]. You'd have found a number of iRobot patents still in their enforceable time period directly referencing the use of cameras in those algorithms[1][2]. You'd have found marketing materials describing how those systems work that directly correlates with the technology described in those patents[3]. That's based on no special previous knowledge of those materials on my part, just the top few results from a couple minutes of DDG and Google Scholar searches. Implying that is just "a big name" that means "something far less interesting than it sounds" is an uninformed opinion. Plus, even [0], which is 15 years old directly refutes your comments about the effect of lighting. Lighting is helpful because it illuminates the scene that a camera is seeing, in the same way that it's easier to go on a night hike on during a full moon. We don't reference our position off the moon, it just makes it easier to see where we're walking. [0] https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/1570091 https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/1570091 [1] https://patents.google.com/patent/US9286810B2/en https://patents.google.com/patent/US9286810B2/en [2] https://patents.google.com/patent/US9910444B2/en https://patents.google.com/patent/US9910444B2/en [3] https://www.irobot.com/roomba/s-series https://www.irobot.com/roomba/s-series
- JoeAltmaier 6y ago
  The processors in a Roomba (when I went to the plant a couple years ago) were all around $1. No room in a buck chip for that. Ok I see it uses DSPs which is a budget version of image processing. Looks for moving marks on the walls to gauge distance. Kind of a cut-rate lidar. About what I figured.
  - qchris 6y ago
    Which plant? Which Roomba? According to the materials released by Qualcomm in 2018 (by which point, the Roomba i7 would have already have had lines in that plant), the processor used is a ARQ8009, a quad-core ARM processor commonly used in smartphones[0]. It's tough to find prices because the contracts are negotiated individually, but I'd put money on those chips costing much more than $1.00/piece. Comparing VSLAM to lidar in any way besides saying that they technically can both be used to measure movement is also incorrect, and to actually call it a "kind of a cut-rate lidar" can only be due to a fundamental misunderstanding of VSLAM, lidar, or both. Lidar measures distance along a single axis, with no additional information provided. You get movement by measuring changes in position by directly updating the distance value and inferring position change. It can be made robust by adding multiple lidar sensors, but is subject to weird edge cases with reflective materials or sunlight. VSLAM only can measure change in vehicle position through the estimated position changes of significant image features through time, and provides no information about vehicle distance to the surroundings while the robot is standing still. You'd require stereo vision for that, and that does require more processing power, typically including a GPU like the one included in the NVIDIA Jetsons. You'd also typically use sensor fusion with an IMU, odometry, etc. to help with that. Without stereo vision, you need motion to estimate position, which fundamentally makes VSLAM different from lidar, and makes your claim that it is "kind of a cut-rate lidar" completely false. I'm not sure which DSP acronym you're referring to as a budget version of image processing , but if it has to do with digital signal processing, then yeah, of course. That's kind of the definition. [0] https://www.qualcomm.com/news/onq/2018/12/17/help-qualcomm-technologies-irobot-roomba-i7-robot-vacuum-delivers-more https://www.qualcomm.com/news/onq/2018/12/17/help-qualcomm-t...
    - 6y ago