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> some racist plot But that's exactly what has been going on, from slavery to the KKK to the "redlining" of cities... Hell man, ask the Indians! This whole n

> some racist plot But that's exactly what has been going on, from slavery to the KKK to the "redlining" of cities... Hell man, ask the Indians! This whole nation is "some racist plot".

throwaway894345 7y ago
There certainly have been various racist plots and of course they have left an awful legacy, but we're trying to explain the what perpetuates the ongoing cycle of violence. Thus it's important to be clear about whether you're espousing a theory of some ongoing racist plot or an emergent property of (for example) our policing strategy. In general, US race debates would be a lot more productive if we were clearer about whether we are talking about a historical injustice or an ongoing injustice--even otherwise good communicators fail to articulate clearly here, and it gives the vibe that they're afraid that their position, articulated clearly, can't stand on its own. I don't think they have as much to fear as they seem to do, and as long as these debates are floundering in ambiguity these real social problems will persist.
- carapace 7y ago
  Well, let me avoid "floundering in ambiguity". I'm not "espousing a theory" I'm stating well-attested facts: slavery in American was not theoretical, the KKK are not theoretical, redlining is not theoretical. Someone else in the thread has linked to a article about the FBI investigating white supremacists who are following today a "historical goal" of infiltrating Law Enforcement. That's not theoretical. So there are "ongoing racist plots", it's no theory. Furthermore there are also emergent properties of our policing strategy that lead to problems as well. FWIW I have no fear that my "position", as you put it, in the "race debates" can stand on its own.
  - throwaway894345 7y ago
    You misunderstood my comment. The "theory" refers to an explanation for what is perpetuating disparities in violence across racial communities, not whether or not certain injustices have happened or continue to happen. (hence, "There are a lot of (both racist and non-racist) theories for explaining this")
    - carapace 7y ago
      I understood you fine. You want to call the obvious connection between racism and endemic violence "theory" and I'm pointing out that that's it's not theoretical at all. I mean, think about it: > the relative prevalence of (especially violent) crime in American minority communities as compared to white communities That obviously has something to do with the fact that a lot of folks living in "American minority communities" can't call the cops for help, eh?
      - throwaway894345 7y ago
        > That obviously has something to do with the fact that a lot of folks living in "American minority communities" can't call the cops for help, eh? I don’t know. Seems plausible, as do many other theories such as the high incarceration rates of adult males leads a leadership/fatherhood void, lack of career opportunities, ratio of negative to positive role models, the types of behaviors that are glorified, etc. I would be terribly surprised if it came down to a single trite explanation (such as yours) as opposed to a complex interplay of all of the above and many more. Social scientists don’t even profess to understand, but you seem very confident, so please, take the floor.

> some racist plot But that's exactly what has been going on, from slavery to the KKK to the "redlining" of cities... Hell man, ask the Indians! This whole nation is "some racist plot".

throwaway894345 7y ago

There certainly have been various racist plots and of course they have left an awful legacy, but we're trying to explain the what perpetuates the ongoing cycle of violence. Thus it's important to be clear about whether you're espousing a theory of some ongoing racist plot or an emergent property of (for example) our policing strategy. In general, US race debates would be a lot more productive if we were clearer about whether we are talking about a historical injustice or an ongoing injustice--even otherwise good communicators fail to articulate clearly here, and it gives the vibe that they're afraid that their position, articulated clearly, can't stand on its own. I don't think they have as much to fear as they seem to do, and as long as these debates are floundering in ambiguity these real social problems will persist.

carapace 7y ago
Well, let me avoid "floundering in ambiguity". I'm not "espousing a theory" I'm stating well-attested facts: slavery in American was not theoretical, the KKK are not theoretical, redlining is not theoretical. Someone else in the thread has linked to a article about the FBI investigating white supremacists who are following today a "historical goal" of infiltrating Law Enforcement. That's not theoretical. So there are "ongoing racist plots", it's no theory. Furthermore there are also emergent properties of our policing strategy that lead to problems as well. FWIW I have no fear that my "position", as you put it, in the "race debates" can stand on its own.
- throwaway894345 7y ago
  You misunderstood my comment. The "theory" refers to an explanation for what is perpetuating disparities in violence across racial communities, not whether or not certain injustices have happened or continue to happen. (hence, "There are a lot of (both racist and non-racist) theories for explaining this")
  - carapace 7y ago
    I understood you fine. You want to call the obvious connection between racism and endemic violence "theory" and I'm pointing out that that's it's not theoretical at all. I mean, think about it: > the relative prevalence of (especially violent) crime in American minority communities as compared to white communities That obviously has something to do with the fact that a lot of folks living in "American minority communities" can't call the cops for help, eh?
    - throwaway894345 7y ago
      > That obviously has something to do with the fact that a lot of folks living in "American minority communities" can't call the cops for help, eh? I don’t know. Seems plausible, as do many other theories such as the high incarceration rates of adult males leads a leadership/fatherhood void, lack of career opportunities, ratio of negative to positive role models, the types of behaviors that are glorified, etc. I would be terribly surprised if it came down to a single trite explanation (such as yours) as opposed to a complex interplay of all of the above and many more. Social scientists don’t even profess to understand, but you seem very confident, so please, take the floor.