6 ms·

Are workers rights a thing in the USA? Seems like it's not.

by simlevesque 6y ago

antonzabirko 6y ago
Of course not, don't be so naive as to expect rights in us.
- jethro_tell 6y ago
  Rights are a commodity in the US, you just buy them like orange futures or oil tankers.
  - antonzabirko 6y ago
    I think more aptly: life is a luxury here.
snewrekcah 6y ago
We traded it for guns, religion & tax relief.
- lliamander 6y ago
  Assuming you are correct, why would the US be in a situation need to trade worker protections for civil liberties? If those politicians offering worker protections were threatening civil liberties, I wouldn't take that deal either.
stagger87 6y ago
Genuine question. Are there other countries in which you can not show up for a scheduled shift, without making prior arrangements with management, and not get reprimanded? On top of this telling your boss that you won't be in for two weeks without their approval...
- random9763 6y ago
  Yes. e.g. in France you have something called "droit de retrait" ("right of withdrawal") when you consider that you cannot do your job without endangering yourself (e.g. not adequate protection or measures, especially in a pandemic), you only have to inform the health committee or your boss by any means before doing so. You cannot be directly denied your salary or get demoted/fired for this. The company can of course appeal by opening a court case saying you abused this right, in which case any sanction may be applied if the ruling is in their favor. The law also mandates that the company is responsible for the health of its employees on company time and premises, so you can also open a court case if you do not feel adequately protected (what happened to amazon).
  - cat199 6y ago
    > You cannot be directly denied your salary or get demoted/fired for this. but what if they do it anyway? this is more the context here - we have wrongful termination as well, though it is likely much less strict
    - random9763 6y ago
      Well, then you go to court and win, because that’s not how they are supposed to do it. If you are a temp worker they can obviously not renew your contract as well.
  - s1artibartfast 6y ago
    Yes, this is the law in the US as well. The catch in both the US and France is that you have to say you believe it is unsafe and why. https://www.osha.gov/right-to-refuse.html https://www.osha.gov/right-to-refuse.html
eanzenberg 6y ago
No, USA is the worst country ever, please don't immigrate here :).
- coldtea 6y ago
  Well, most of us in proper modern western countries wouldn't and don't. Don't get too proud from getting immigrants from piss poor countries that bought on the snake oil of the "american dream" (aka rat race).
  - fooker 6y ago
    US has net positive immigration from most of the 'proper modern western countries'.
    - coldtea 6y ago
      Keyword: most. And even those come for money opportunities, not for anything related to preferring the lifestyle and/or culture. Be assured people don't leave Western Europe for the US because of "freedom" or better "legal rights" there (which is what we were discussing)... Not to mention that the US is below in people immigrating to it internationally (net immigration / capita) compared to: Luxembourg, Switzerland, Australia, Austria, Italy, Sweden, Germany, Belgium, Great Britain, Denmark , and others...
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
sanderjd 6y ago
The serious answer is: yes, but it requires courts, which are slow. I'm curious how this works in other countries; if a company lets someone go inappropriately, is there faster recourse than the courts? Can you go to the police and have them escort you back in, or what?
- andruby 6y ago
  IANAL In other countries, you can't "just let someone go". In Belgium there are CAO's [0], which loosely translates to: Collective Employment Agreements. Basically all employment agreements for a whole industry are more or less standardised. On one side there are the employers (of different companies) and the other side are the workers, which are represented by union leaders (perhaps also political representatives). These agreements includes a lot of rules on how employment can be terminated. One example could be that an employer is only allowed to fire an employee for underperformance after given the employee 3 written reports over a period of 3 months and working on a plan to improve their performance. Only after that fails to produce results are you allowed to fire the employee. And you need to keep the documentation as it could be reviewed in court if the employee decides to fight it. (That doesn't happen often). For this reason, often the employer will try to get the employee to quit. Or at least come to a mutual agreement to terminate the employment. In Belgium, it's very hard to fire employees, and I think this is the same for several other European countries. As a result, I haven't heard of many EU companies firing employees during these rough times. At least, not as often as US companies with "at-will employment". The flip-side is that large companies will often have a glut of employees that aren't productive, but can't be fired. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_agreement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_agreement
- gambiting 6y ago
  >>if a company lets someone go inappropriately The problem with even arriving there is that there are three ways of letting go of someone: 1) just letting them go for any reason, but it requires giving them minimum notice(usually at least a month, but in many places it's 3 months or even more). Companies get around this by just paying the employee their salary for the duration of the notice period and just telling them not to come in any more. 2) both sides can agree to terminate the contract immediately - this usually happens if the employee wants to go somewhere else, but they also have say a 3 month notice period - in that case sometimes you can agree with the company that you will leave immediately but also not receive your 3 month pay. 3) You can let someone go immediately without pay, but only due to gross misconduct - and ooh boy, you better have it very very well documented that it was gross misconduct(like, a recording of someone stealing is usually good enough). So the entire "letting someone go inappropriately" thing is lessened because it's really hard to argue for in cases 1 and 2, and employers really try to avoid case no. 3 specifically because of the risk of being sued. Most companies would rather just pay you for the remaining time on your contract to let you go immediately than risk being sued.
dang 6y ago
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23115743 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23115743.

Are workers rights a thing in the USA? Seems like it's not.

antonzabirko 6y ago

Of course not, don't be so naive as to expect rights in us.

jethro_tell 6y ago
Rights are a commodity in the US, you just buy them like orange futures or oil tankers.
- antonzabirko 6y ago
  I think more aptly: life is a luxury here.

snewrekcah 6y ago

We traded it for guns, religion & tax relief.

lliamander 6y ago
Assuming you are correct, why would the US be in a situation need to trade worker protections for civil liberties? If those politicians offering worker protections were threatening civil liberties, I wouldn't take that deal either.

stagger87 6y ago

Genuine question. Are there other countries in which you can not show up for a scheduled shift, without making prior arrangements with management, and not get reprimanded? On top of this telling your boss that you won't be in for two weeks without their approval...

random9763 6y ago
Yes. e.g. in France you have something called "droit de retrait" ("right of withdrawal") when you consider that you cannot do your job without endangering yourself (e.g. not adequate protection or measures, especially in a pandemic), you only have to inform the health committee or your boss by any means before doing so. You cannot be directly denied your salary or get demoted/fired for this. The company can of course appeal by opening a court case saying you abused this right, in which case any sanction may be applied if the ruling is in their favor. The law also mandates that the company is responsible for the health of its employees on company time and premises, so you can also open a court case if you do not feel adequately protected (what happened to amazon).
- cat199 6y ago
  > You cannot be directly denied your salary or get demoted/fired for this. but what if they do it anyway? this is more the context here - we have wrongful termination as well, though it is likely much less strict
  - random9763 6y ago
    Well, then you go to court and win, because that’s not how they are supposed to do it. If you are a temp worker they can obviously not renew your contract as well.
- s1artibartfast 6y ago
  Yes, this is the law in the US as well. The catch in both the US and France is that you have to say you believe it is unsafe and why. https://www.osha.gov/right-to-refuse.html https://www.osha.gov/right-to-refuse.html

eanzenberg 6y ago

No, USA is the worst country ever, please don't immigrate here :).

coldtea 6y ago
Well, most of us in proper modern western countries wouldn't and don't. Don't get too proud from getting immigrants from piss poor countries that bought on the snake oil of the "american dream" (aka rat race).
- fooker 6y ago
  US has net positive immigration from most of the 'proper modern western countries'.
  - coldtea 6y ago
    Keyword: most. And even those come for money opportunities, not for anything related to preferring the lifestyle and/or culture. Be assured people don't leave Western Europe for the US because of "freedom" or better "legal rights" there (which is what we were discussing)... Not to mention that the US is below in people immigrating to it internationally (net immigration / capita) compared to: Luxembourg, Switzerland, Australia, Austria, Italy, Sweden, Germany, Belgium, Great Britain, Denmark , and others...
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

sanderjd 6y ago

The serious answer is: yes, but it requires courts, which are slow. I'm curious how this works in other countries; if a company lets someone go inappropriately, is there faster recourse than the courts? Can you go to the police and have them escort you back in, or what?

andruby 6y ago
IANAL In other countries, you can't "just let someone go". In Belgium there are CAO's [0], which loosely translates to: Collective Employment Agreements. Basically all employment agreements for a whole industry are more or less standardised. On one side there are the employers (of different companies) and the other side are the workers, which are represented by union leaders (perhaps also political representatives). These agreements includes a lot of rules on how employment can be terminated. One example could be that an employer is only allowed to fire an employee for underperformance after given the employee 3 written reports over a period of 3 months and working on a plan to improve their performance. Only after that fails to produce results are you allowed to fire the employee. And you need to keep the documentation as it could be reviewed in court if the employee decides to fight it. (That doesn't happen often). For this reason, often the employer will try to get the employee to quit. Or at least come to a mutual agreement to terminate the employment. In Belgium, it's very hard to fire employees, and I think this is the same for several other European countries. As a result, I haven't heard of many EU companies firing employees during these rough times. At least, not as often as US companies with "at-will employment". The flip-side is that large companies will often have a glut of employees that aren't productive, but can't be fired. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_agreement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_agreement
gambiting 6y ago
>>if a company lets someone go inappropriately The problem with even arriving there is that there are three ways of letting go of someone: 1) just letting them go for any reason, but it requires giving them minimum notice(usually at least a month, but in many places it's 3 months or even more). Companies get around this by just paying the employee their salary for the duration of the notice period and just telling them not to come in any more. 2) both sides can agree to terminate the contract immediately - this usually happens if the employee wants to go somewhere else, but they also have say a 3 month notice period - in that case sometimes you can agree with the company that you will leave immediately but also not receive your 3 month pay. 3) You can let someone go immediately without pay, but only due to gross misconduct - and ooh boy, you better have it very very well documented that it was gross misconduct(like, a recording of someone stealing is usually good enough). So the entire "letting someone go inappropriately" thing is lessened because it's really hard to argue for in cases 1 and 2, and employers really try to avoid case no. 3 specifically because of the risk of being sued. Most companies would rather just pay you for the remaining time on your contract to let you go immediately than risk being sued.

dang 6y ago

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23115743 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23115743.