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Yes. This incident shows AWS engineers have significantly more leverage than their coworkers in warehouses. If you are an engineer who works for Amazon and you

Yes. This incident shows AWS engineers have significantly more leverage than their coworkers in warehouses. If you are an engineer who works for Amazon and you want to see real changes here's a suggestion: In an ideal world, you will not have to look for another job, to encourage change, but considering the circumstances, the most impactful way to encourage change is to follow Tim Bray's footsteps. If a significant amount of critical engineers leave AWS and they make it clear that it was because of the poor treatment of Fulfillment Center teammates, Amazon will change. AWS who want to have a major impact, and are willing & able, should find a new employer. Secure new positions, resign then write to all the journalists covering Tim Bray's story, about why this group decided to leave. Warehouse workers as a group have significantly less leverage because they are easier to replace, especially now when there are so many people who are unemployed that can quickly take their position. AWS engineers as a group have far more leverage because they are harder to replace, even now, during the pandemic. As for me, this will be the last year I shop for products on Amazon for the foreseeable future, and I may never come back, and I will be encouraging others to do the same. I'm one of those people who love shopping on Amazon, well not anymore.

alharith 6y ago
> As for me, this will be the last year I shop for products on Amazon for the foreseeable future, and I may never come back, and I will be encouraging others to do the same. I'm one of those people who love shopping on Amazon, well not anymore. Your sacrifice will be honored for many ages to come.
IgorPartola 6y ago
I know it’s not much, but every time Amazon’s recruiters send me an invitation to apply for a position with them, I respond saying that I won’t consider working for them until they treat their warehouse workers better. Of course it helps that I am happily employed and not looking for a new job.
- JadeNB 6y ago
  Big change is made up of a bunch of small deeds that are each individually not much. Good for you!
  - clairity 6y ago
    yes, our brains are evolutionarily wired to magnify adverse phenomena from very little data. if a given recruiter hears that message just 3 or 4 times, they're likely to start believing it's prevalent across the labor pool.
- runamok 6y ago
  Off topic but I enjoy blowing off Oracle recruiters in similar fashion.
netsharc 6y ago
> This is incident shows AWS engineers have significantly more leverage than their coworkers in warehouses. I disagree. He had leverage because of his title, and probably because he has a Wikipedia page about him (i.e. he's a noteworthy engineer). If a random anonymous AWS engineer quit tomorrow, it won't make the news. If a significant number of them do, then Amazon might start panicking... In that topic, is Facebook still toxic to SWEs?
- dylan604 6y ago
  >In that topic, is Facebook still toxic to SWEs? Better phrased would be is Facebook still toxic? If a company is toxic to one group, it is toxic for all even if they don't suffer directly, they are definitely enabling.
- giaour 6y ago
  As a former AWS engineer, I'm going to disagree. Teams and products at AWS are set up to weather most any individual leaving, but they are fairly lean and would certainly feel the pain of an engineer quitting in protest. Obviously, Tim Bray has a lot more leverage than most engineers at AWS or Amazon. It takes someone at the senior principal or distinguished engineer level to really shock the upper echelons of management. But there are droves of SDE IIs and SDE IIIs who've been with the company for a few years and whose leaving the company in protest would have a noticeable, immediate impact on their team and larger org.
mabbo 6y ago
> who want to have a major impact, and are willing & able, should find a new employer (These views are my own and I don't in any way represent Amazon, my employer. I wasn't paid to say them either.) It's easier said than done. There's a pandemic on and most of us are just glad to not be in the ~20% unemployment rate. We have mortgages to pay, children to feed, etc. Many of us just became single-income households. Taking on risks now is hard. I truly respect Tim's actions. I hope it sparks change.
- rockarage 6y ago
  Yes, which is why I said willing & able. Able in this context means: you have the resources and circumstances to do so. Moreover, you will only resign once you have secured the job.
  - IG_Semmelweiss 6y ago
    This is a funny response. If this is really about principle, it should not matter whether you have a job or not. Don't expect anyone to pay attention to your 1% antics when you have a confy backup job. All you are doing is revealing to others that this is something that should not be taken seriously.
jon889 6y ago
I’m not sure leaving is the best thing though, unless it’s high profile or a large group. If people leave in a trickle then others will replace them that won’t have that conscience.
geodel 6y ago
> If a significant amount of critical engineers leave AWS and they make it clear that it was because of the poor treatment of Fulfillment Center teammates, It seems unlikely not just because a lot of engineers like to close their eyes towards others suffering but they really believe "People should be paid according to the value they create". And it is just code that they should be paid more and lower rung can be paid next to nothing else robots will take their jobs.
igorkraw 6y ago
I wonder why none of the socially minded white collar workers are pushing for unionisation across Amazon? Have the AWS engineers strike in solidarity of the warehouse workers...
miscPerson 6y ago
Where do you intend to shop that treats their warehouse staff better?
zxienin 6y ago
> As for me, this will be the last year I shop for products on Amazon for the foreseeable future +1 because of my own same position. Though, obviously this needs to happen at larger scale to have any impact.

alharith 6y ago

> As for me, this will be the last year I shop for products on Amazon for the foreseeable future, and I may never come back, and I will be encouraging others to do the same. I'm one of those people who love shopping on Amazon, well not anymore. Your sacrifice will be honored for many ages to come.

IgorPartola 6y ago

I know it’s not much, but every time Amazon’s recruiters send me an invitation to apply for a position with them, I respond saying that I won’t consider working for them until they treat their warehouse workers better. Of course it helps that I am happily employed and not looking for a new job.

JadeNB 6y ago
Big change is made up of a bunch of small deeds that are each individually not much. Good for you!
- clairity 6y ago
  yes, our brains are evolutionarily wired to magnify adverse phenomena from very little data. if a given recruiter hears that message just 3 or 4 times, they're likely to start believing it's prevalent across the labor pool.
runamok 6y ago
Off topic but I enjoy blowing off Oracle recruiters in similar fashion.

netsharc 6y ago

> This is incident shows AWS engineers have significantly more leverage than their coworkers in warehouses. I disagree. He had leverage because of his title, and probably because he has a Wikipedia page about him (i.e. he's a noteworthy engineer). If a random anonymous AWS engineer quit tomorrow, it won't make the news. If a significant number of them do, then Amazon might start panicking... In that topic, is Facebook still toxic to SWEs?

dylan604 6y ago
>In that topic, is Facebook still toxic to SWEs? Better phrased would be is Facebook still toxic? If a company is toxic to one group, it is toxic for all even if they don't suffer directly, they are definitely enabling.
giaour 6y ago
As a former AWS engineer, I'm going to disagree. Teams and products at AWS are set up to weather most any individual leaving, but they are fairly lean and would certainly feel the pain of an engineer quitting in protest. Obviously, Tim Bray has a lot more leverage than most engineers at AWS or Amazon. It takes someone at the senior principal or distinguished engineer level to really shock the upper echelons of management. But there are droves of SDE IIs and SDE IIIs who've been with the company for a few years and whose leaving the company in protest would have a noticeable, immediate impact on their team and larger org.

mabbo 6y ago

> who want to have a major impact, and are willing & able, should find a new employer (These views are my own and I don't in any way represent Amazon, my employer. I wasn't paid to say them either.) It's easier said than done. There's a pandemic on and most of us are just glad to not be in the ~20% unemployment rate. We have mortgages to pay, children to feed, etc. Many of us just became single-income households. Taking on risks now is hard. I truly respect Tim's actions. I hope it sparks change.

rockarage 6y ago
Yes, which is why I said willing & able. Able in this context means: you have the resources and circumstances to do so. Moreover, you will only resign once you have secured the job.
- IG_Semmelweiss 6y ago
  This is a funny response. If this is really about principle, it should not matter whether you have a job or not. Don't expect anyone to pay attention to your 1% antics when you have a confy backup job. All you are doing is revealing to others that this is something that should not be taken seriously.

jon889 6y ago

I’m not sure leaving is the best thing though, unless it’s high profile or a large group. If people leave in a trickle then others will replace them that won’t have that conscience.

geodel 6y ago

> If a significant amount of critical engineers leave AWS and they make it clear that it was because of the poor treatment of Fulfillment Center teammates, It seems unlikely not just because a lot of engineers like to close their eyes towards others suffering but they really believe "People should be paid according to the value they create". And it is just code that they should be paid more and lower rung can be paid next to nothing else robots will take their jobs.

igorkraw 6y ago

I wonder why none of the socially minded white collar workers are pushing for unionisation across Amazon? Have the AWS engineers strike in solidarity of the warehouse workers...

miscPerson 6y ago

Where do you intend to shop that treats their warehouse staff better?

zxienin 6y ago

> As for me, this will be the last year I shop for products on Amazon for the foreseeable future +1 because of my own same position. Though, obviously this needs to happen at larger scale to have any impact.