6 ms·

> Yeah, the story is about firing whistleblowers, not about a random Canadian Distinguished Engineer’s reaction to it. So news organizations should follow the p

by ken 6y ago

> Yeah, the story is about firing whistleblowers, not about a random Canadian Distinguished Engineer’s reaction to it. So news organizations should follow the primary sources, not me. Yes and no. I appreciate where he's coming from, but "mega-corporation exploits and mistreats blue-collar workers" isn't new. That happens every day, and has since corporations have existed. "White-collar worker quits over own company's treatment of blue-collar workers" is news. It points to a shift: even the people profiting off this are starting to think it's getting ridiculous. I'm having trouble thinking of any other cases where this has occurred. The only thing that comes to mind is Gates and Buffet saying they should pay higher taxes, but that has much less personal impact on them.

scarface74 6y ago
s/is profiting/has profited. He is a multi millionaire close to retirement. It wasn’t actually a great sacrifice. It’s like all of the former Google and Facebook employees “bravely” speaking out after they have already cashed in their lucrative RSUs
- MiroF 6y ago
  I don't understand the point of this comment.
  - whatshisface 6y ago
    I think the comment is trying to indirectly say that existing Amazon employees shouldn't be expect to follow the standard he's setting, because they haven't made their millions yet.
  - throwaway2048 6y ago
    The point is to try to make him out as a hypocrite who should be ignored, as if being a hypocrite has anything to do with being right or wrong.
- jeromegv 6y ago
  "Wasn't a great sacrifice", what do you know of his personal situation? It's funny how some can be more critical of the employees that dare to speak out, than the actual companies that have enacted policies that put thousands of workers at risk across the globe.
  - scarface74 6y ago
    So his “personal situation” after making a million a year at Amazon is dire? Amazon is always issuing employees RSUs that vest at dome future date. No matter when he leaves he would have “lost” money.
    - scott_w 6y ago
      So what? Tim already said he doesn’t want to be a martyr, he’s just saying that he couldn’t continue to look himself in the mirror if he kept cashing the cheque. I could see your point if Tim didn’t point out his own privilege but he does _in both articles._
      - scarface74 6y ago
        Then why is HN acting like he took such a bold stand?
        scott_w 6y ago
        As others pointed out: this caused it to hit the news whereas “blue collar workers abused by corporate giant” never does.
        scarface74 6y ago
        It only made the news in tech circles. The same people who already know.
        scott_w 6y ago
- Majromax 6y ago
  > It wasn’t actually a great sacrifice. The direct personal cost was mentioned in the original public letter: >> What with big-tech salaries and share vestings, this will probably cost me over a million (pre-tax) dollars, not to mention the best job I’ve ever had, working with awfully good people. Even though it's unlikely to put the author in the poorhouse, that's not a trivial cost.
  - scarface74 6y ago
    Share vesting in big tech means everyone who works in a white collar job is “losing money” when they leave.
- jmeister 6y ago
  Rich people can never do anything good, right? Purity-testing Bernie fanatic, right?
  - scarface74 6y ago
    No but just like tech workers virtue signaling that people are stupid for wanting to go back to work so they can pay their bills while we sit at home because we can work remotely...
- GVIrish 6y ago
  Maybe it wasn't a great sacrifice. But how many powerful and well-off people do nothing at all? Maybe if more people like him took action, even if the personal cost is relatively modest, more things would change for the better.
rockarage 6y ago
Yes. This incident shows AWS engineers have significantly more leverage than their coworkers in warehouses. If you are an engineer who works for Amazon and you want to see real changes here's a suggestion: In an ideal world, you will not have to look for another job, to encourage change, but considering the circumstances, the most impactful way to encourage change is to follow Tim Bray's footsteps. If a significant amount of critical engineers leave AWS and they make it clear that it was because of the poor treatment of Fulfillment Center teammates, Amazon will change. AWS who want to have a major impact, and are willing & able, should find a new employer. Secure new positions, resign then write to all the journalists covering Tim Bray's story, about why this group decided to leave. Warehouse workers as a group have significantly less leverage because they are easier to replace, especially now when there are so many people who are unemployed that can quickly take their position. AWS engineers as a group have far more leverage because they are harder to replace, even now, during the pandemic. As for me, this will be the last year I shop for products on Amazon for the foreseeable future, and I may never come back, and I will be encouraging others to do the same. I'm one of those people who love shopping on Amazon, well not anymore.
- alharith 6y ago
  > As for me, this will be the last year I shop for products on Amazon for the foreseeable future, and I may never come back, and I will be encouraging others to do the same. I'm one of those people who love shopping on Amazon, well not anymore. Your sacrifice will be honored for many ages to come.
- IgorPartola 6y ago
  I know it’s not much, but every time Amazon’s recruiters send me an invitation to apply for a position with them, I respond saying that I won’t consider working for them until they treat their warehouse workers better. Of course it helps that I am happily employed and not looking for a new job.
  - JadeNB 6y ago
    Big change is made up of a bunch of small deeds that are each individually not much. Good for you!
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
dareutodownvote 6y ago
Ex googler had a sudden public crisis of conscience and was/is running for office. https://medium.com/@rossformaine/i-was-googles-head-of-international-relations-here-s-why-i-left-49313d23065 https://medium.com/@rossformaine/i-was-googles-head-of-inter... Ex-facebook VP is on an anti-social media crusade. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2017/12/12/former-facebook-vp-says-social-media-is-destroying-society-with-dopamine-driven-feedback-loops/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2017/12/12... Most famously, Roger McNamee. https://techcrunch.com/2019/02/05/famed-investor-roger-mcnamee-once-advised-facebook-now-hes-certain-its-destroying-our-democracy/ https://techcrunch.com/2019/02/05/famed-investor-roger-mcnam... Because the people who irresponsibly helped destroy the concept of personal privacy should get all the credit for trying to fix it.
- aspenmayer 6y ago
  In past times priests wore sackcloth and flogged themselves in public while living in opulent luxury. Our current oracles are having a minor crisis of faith. Might we have a modern Martin Luther situation brewing here?
- jmeister 6y ago
  Insiders who turn against their companies or industries are extremely valuable, because they can suggest respectable solutions. Your opinion reminds me of purity-testing Bernie fanatics I stumble upon on Twitter.

by ken 6y ago

scarface74 6y ago

s/is profiting/has profited. He is a multi millionaire close to retirement. It wasn’t actually a great sacrifice. It’s like all of the former Google and Facebook employees “bravely” speaking out after they have already cashed in their lucrative RSUs

MiroF 6y ago
I don't understand the point of this comment.
- whatshisface 6y ago
  I think the comment is trying to indirectly say that existing Amazon employees shouldn't be expect to follow the standard he's setting, because they haven't made their millions yet.
- throwaway2048 6y ago
  The point is to try to make him out as a hypocrite who should be ignored, as if being a hypocrite has anything to do with being right or wrong.
jeromegv 6y ago
"Wasn't a great sacrifice", what do you know of his personal situation? It's funny how some can be more critical of the employees that dare to speak out, than the actual companies that have enacted policies that put thousands of workers at risk across the globe.
- scarface74 6y ago
  So his “personal situation” after making a million a year at Amazon is dire? Amazon is always issuing employees RSUs that vest at dome future date. No matter when he leaves he would have “lost” money.
  - scott_w 6y ago
    So what? Tim already said he doesn’t want to be a martyr, he’s just saying that he couldn’t continue to look himself in the mirror if he kept cashing the cheque. I could see your point if Tim didn’t point out his own privilege but he does _in both articles._
    - scarface74 6y ago
      Then why is HN acting like he took such a bold stand?
      - scott_w 6y ago
        As others pointed out: this caused it to hit the news whereas “blue collar workers abused by corporate giant” never does.
        scarface74 6y ago
        It only made the news in tech circles. The same people who already know.
        scott_w 6y ago
Majromax 6y ago
> It wasn’t actually a great sacrifice. The direct personal cost was mentioned in the original public letter: >> What with big-tech salaries and share vestings, this will probably cost me over a million (pre-tax) dollars, not to mention the best job I’ve ever had, working with awfully good people. Even though it's unlikely to put the author in the poorhouse, that's not a trivial cost.
- scarface74 6y ago
  Share vesting in big tech means everyone who works in a white collar job is “losing money” when they leave.
jmeister 6y ago
Rich people can never do anything good, right? Purity-testing Bernie fanatic, right?
- scarface74 6y ago
  No but just like tech workers virtue signaling that people are stupid for wanting to go back to work so they can pay their bills while we sit at home because we can work remotely...
GVIrish 6y ago
Maybe it wasn't a great sacrifice. But how many powerful and well-off people do nothing at all? Maybe if more people like him took action, even if the personal cost is relatively modest, more things would change for the better.

rockarage 6y ago

Yes. This incident shows AWS engineers have significantly more leverage than their coworkers in warehouses. If you are an engineer who works for Amazon and you want to see real changes here's a suggestion: In an ideal world, you will not have to look for another job, to encourage change, but considering the circumstances, the most impactful way to encourage change is to follow Tim Bray's footsteps. If a significant amount of critical engineers leave AWS and they make it clear that it was because of the poor treatment of Fulfillment Center teammates, Amazon will change. AWS who want to have a major impact, and are willing & able, should find a new employer. Secure new positions, resign then write to all the journalists covering Tim Bray's story, about why this group decided to leave. Warehouse workers as a group have significantly less leverage because they are easier to replace, especially now when there are so many people who are unemployed that can quickly take their position. AWS engineers as a group have far more leverage because they are harder to replace, even now, during the pandemic. As for me, this will be the last year I shop for products on Amazon for the foreseeable future, and I may never come back, and I will be encouraging others to do the same. I'm one of those people who love shopping on Amazon, well not anymore.

alharith 6y ago
> As for me, this will be the last year I shop for products on Amazon for the foreseeable future, and I may never come back, and I will be encouraging others to do the same. I'm one of those people who love shopping on Amazon, well not anymore. Your sacrifice will be honored for many ages to come.
IgorPartola 6y ago
I know it’s not much, but every time Amazon’s recruiters send me an invitation to apply for a position with them, I respond saying that I won’t consider working for them until they treat their warehouse workers better. Of course it helps that I am happily employed and not looking for a new job.
- JadeNB 6y ago
  Big change is made up of a bunch of small deeds that are each individually not much. Good for you!

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

dareutodownvote 6y ago

Ex googler had a sudden public crisis of conscience and was/is running for office. https://medium.com/@rossformaine/i-was-googles-head-of-international-relations-here-s-why-i-left-49313d23065 https://medium.com/@rossformaine/i-was-googles-head-of-inter... Ex-facebook VP is on an anti-social media crusade. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2017/12/12/former-facebook-vp-says-social-media-is-destroying-society-with-dopamine-driven-feedback-loops/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2017/12/12... Most famously, Roger McNamee. https://techcrunch.com/2019/02/05/famed-investor-roger-mcnamee-once-advised-facebook-now-hes-certain-its-destroying-our-democracy/ https://techcrunch.com/2019/02/05/famed-investor-roger-mcnam... Because the people who irresponsibly helped destroy the concept of personal privacy should get all the credit for trying to fix it.

aspenmayer 6y ago
In past times priests wore sackcloth and flogged themselves in public while living in opulent luxury. Our current oracles are having a minor crisis of faith. Might we have a modern Martin Luther situation brewing here?
jmeister 6y ago
Insiders who turn against their companies or industries are extremely valuable, because they can suggest respectable solutions. Your opinion reminds me of purity-testing Bernie fanatics I stumble upon on Twitter.