7 ms·

The narrative the market has taken into account ("priced in") the current economic factors is tiresome. If it did, we wouldn't up at the numbers we are. The mo

by ctvo 6y ago

The narrative the market has taken into account ("priced in") the current economic factors is tiresome. If it did, we wouldn't up at the numbers we are. The more likely scenario is the market is disconnected with economic conditions, and the low volume seen in this rally are the same set of market participants creating liquidity while the majority watch from the sideline awaiting more news.

Spooky23 6y ago
A lot of businessy people buy into some sort of magical wisdom of the market. It’s not a particularly wise institution, and pouring money in now is just institutional players enabled by free money coming out of government. The rest are lambs heading for slaughter, as there are very significant headwinds in our future that the market has not priced in.
- ctvo 6y ago
  The sophisticated participants are well aware of the economic realities, but as long as there's money to be made (eager retail investors tagging along), they'll keep this up, because why not?
  - Spooky23 6y ago
    There's an obvious moral hazard for these larger players, because as it stands today, heads they win, tails we all lose. We have a defacto policy of socializing risk for financial institutions. You're not hearing about money guys jumping out the window in 2020 or 2009 like in 1929. The firms are corporations that insulate the principals from the risk. (Until about 20 years ago, many of the big players were limited partnerships, for example)
- robjan 6y ago
  If you're so sure of that, I hope you are shorting the market.
  - ceejayoz 6y ago
    I'm not prepared to take the unlimited downside on that, but I did largely get out of the market recently. The Dow hit the 7000s in the last recession, and every indication is that this one will be far larger.
    - frockington1 6y ago
      Theres many ways to do that without unlimited downside. Buy long dated puts. If you really think the DOW will hit 7000, then buy gold because everything will crumble. What bad news do you expect to cause the market to decrease by 70%? States are opening up with success and even South Dakota who did absolutely nothing seems to be doing pretty well
      - ceejayoz 6y ago
        > What bad news do you expect to cause the market to decrease by 70%? The recession we've just entered? > States are opening up with success Sure, and the Iraq War was winding down back in 2003. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mission_Accomplished_speech https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mission_Accomplished_speech
      - Spooky23 6y ago
        When companies miss their revenue by 5%, the stock plunges. We're in a reality where whole industries are nuked. I'm friendly with the guy who owns a gas station franchise -- his business is down 90%. The oil company, CocaCola bottler, candy distributor, Frito-Lay franchisee, gift card network, etc are all feeling that.
  - Spooky23 6y ago
    I don't have the cash or the time to do that. My approach was to allocate my portfolio to 50% cash/short term bond in the fall/winter as a reaction to other factors that I wasn't personally comfortable with. I'll start dollar cost averaging into a more equity focused allocation later in 2020 or next year. It's too risky for me right now, Federal policy is so unpredictable and insane you have no idea what will happen. For example, the proposal floated last night to delay 2019 tax filings to after the election will bankrupt states with income tax, whose policies didn't forsee a madman POTUS. If we end up in a depression-like state, i may use the cash to keep my house, etc.
- cm2187 6y ago
  I think you meant economists. People working in finance are usually under no illusion of whether the market prices in all the information at a given time, and are rather focusing on who does what.
  - Spooky23 6y ago
    I'm more talking about people in business in general. You'll see alot of posts on HN where people have faith-based belief in the market, for example. Finance people make their livings working around information asymmetry and optimizing for market outcomes. (But remember, the thumb is on the scale, and many are too big for the institutions to fail!) If the market were magically aware, they wouldn't have a job.
- vikramkr 6y ago
  Exactly, and it doesn't matter whether or not markets are actually efficient when it comes to explaining this price move. People were willing to pay what they paid for stocks yesterday. Today, news is better than expected. They'll now be willing to pay more. If they believe that markets are efficient, whether or not they actually are, that'll support buying even more. So better than expected news makes prices move up. The main point I'm trying to make is that this move isn't because traders are happy there's so much unemployment.
generalpass 6y ago
I am also suspicious of the market disconnect from the broader economy, but I wonder what the Fed is up to. They have announced they are going to purchase corporate debt, among many other things. In the last recession, they didn't report everything they put money into and it took an act of Congress to get a limited report of their otherwise unreported activities.
- _curious_ 6y ago
  Totally second this notion as there is no actual transparency into the market so no-one (save for maybe a select few insiders) actually know whatsup. Anyone who claims to know things (beyond an idea, theory, or speculation) about the equities market at large whether on HN or anywhere is outing themselves as full of it. This underlying opacity cannot be ignored for flies in the face of all the 'already priced in' arguments and 'rational actor' notions.
- Nasrudith 6y ago
  The official rationale is bank stability and credit requirements needing a certain minimum amount of liquid cash by law and it is collateraled loans. (Although corporate bonds as collateral is a concerning escalation as either needing to take them as they were out of free treasury bonds or worse given needlessly.) Do you know what sort of things were otherwise unreported?
- samsonradu 6y ago
  I'm also a bit suspicious (apolitically) about the current administration's 'attention' to the stock market. It's uncommon to see presidents tweeting all-time highs every week and it wouldn't surprise me if in a few years from now we found out some shady propping up had been going on.
themoops36 6y ago
Thanks for saying this. The "Priced In" fallacy has been on full display since the pandemic began. As late as a few weeks ago people were still talking about a "V-Shaped Recovery" and now the narrative is changing to a long, slow recovery. I have no claim to know exactly what's going on, but I don't think the markets are efficient, and I don't think they're random. I think decent theories are that the markets are reacting to unprecedented Fed action and/or there are a lot of retail investors attempting to "buy the dip". It's probably fair to say there are large disconnects from business fundamentals and what it actually means when economies shut down. Howard Marks put it in a way I find compelling: "The bottom is when there's no more optimism left" (paraphrasing). If I had to bet (and I am), I'd say there is a lot of wishful thinking going on. People want mid-March to be the bottom, so they buy, and so prices go up. Prices trend up and so... more people buy. Feels like a ton of confirmation bias with big consequences later on. I actually think we might see a change in investor sentiment once things do start opening up and everyone realizes the damage done (many businesses closed, defaults, still-high unemployment, etc.) Again, I'm no expert but it feels like a good time to be fearful w/r/t investments
- ashtonkem 6y ago
  Having worked in finance as a non-trader, people underestimate how group think-y professional traders can be.
- frockington1 6y ago
  Hasn't it already been pretty V-shaped? Sure some sectors are going to get hit harder than others but markets are already back to levels from a year ago
  - ModernMech 6y ago
    "Recovery" refers to the economy, not the stock market. You can't say the economy has recovered yet while unemployment is still going up and GDP is still going down. The idea of a "V-shaped recovery" came from the notion that demand dropped and unemployment spiked because the government imposed lock downs, and once those lock downs were removed everything would just snap back to the way they were pre-corona.
mywittyname 6y ago
>The more likely scenario is the market is disconnected with economic conditions, Also, 1) passive investment represents a much larger fraction of stock holdings than in previous decades. 2) a significant fraction of these passive investments are held in retirement accounts which cannot be easily liquidated. 3) another significant fraction is held by wealthy buy-and-hold investors which may never need to liquidate assets. For the most part, I think the stock market is going to be stable for quite a while because there's really no viable investment alternatives. It's not like you can go into bonds because yields are basically nothing. Now, if some rules are passed that allow for 401ks to be liquidated without penalty, then that might be a cause for concern.
- Izkata 6y ago
  > Now, if some rules are passed that allow for 401ks to be liquidated without penalty, then that might be a cause for concern. The CARES act did that a month ago: https://www.businessinsider.com/personal-finance/coronavirus-relief-bill-early-retirement-withdrawals-be-cautious-2020-4 https://www.businessinsider.com/personal-finance/coronavirus...
cm2187 6y ago
There is also the drug addict reaction where more bad news means more QE coming means markets up rather than down.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

by ctvo 6y ago

Spooky23 6y ago

A lot of businessy people buy into some sort of magical wisdom of the market. It’s not a particularly wise institution, and pouring money in now is just institutional players enabled by free money coming out of government. The rest are lambs heading for slaughter, as there are very significant headwinds in our future that the market has not priced in.

ctvo 6y ago
The sophisticated participants are well aware of the economic realities, but as long as there's money to be made (eager retail investors tagging along), they'll keep this up, because why not?
- Spooky23 6y ago
  There's an obvious moral hazard for these larger players, because as it stands today, heads they win, tails we all lose. We have a defacto policy of socializing risk for financial institutions. You're not hearing about money guys jumping out the window in 2020 or 2009 like in 1929. The firms are corporations that insulate the principals from the risk. (Until about 20 years ago, many of the big players were limited partnerships, for example)
robjan 6y ago
If you're so sure of that, I hope you are shorting the market.
- ceejayoz 6y ago
  I'm not prepared to take the unlimited downside on that, but I did largely get out of the market recently. The Dow hit the 7000s in the last recession, and every indication is that this one will be far larger.
  - frockington1 6y ago
    Theres many ways to do that without unlimited downside. Buy long dated puts. If you really think the DOW will hit 7000, then buy gold because everything will crumble. What bad news do you expect to cause the market to decrease by 70%? States are opening up with success and even South Dakota who did absolutely nothing seems to be doing pretty well
    - ceejayoz 6y ago
      > What bad news do you expect to cause the market to decrease by 70%? The recession we've just entered? > States are opening up with success Sure, and the Iraq War was winding down back in 2003. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mission_Accomplished_speech https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mission_Accomplished_speech
    - Spooky23 6y ago
      When companies miss their revenue by 5%, the stock plunges. We're in a reality where whole industries are nuked. I'm friendly with the guy who owns a gas station franchise -- his business is down 90%. The oil company, CocaCola bottler, candy distributor, Frito-Lay franchisee, gift card network, etc are all feeling that.
- Spooky23 6y ago
  I don't have the cash or the time to do that. My approach was to allocate my portfolio to 50% cash/short term bond in the fall/winter as a reaction to other factors that I wasn't personally comfortable with. I'll start dollar cost averaging into a more equity focused allocation later in 2020 or next year. It's too risky for me right now, Federal policy is so unpredictable and insane you have no idea what will happen. For example, the proposal floated last night to delay 2019 tax filings to after the election will bankrupt states with income tax, whose policies didn't forsee a madman POTUS. If we end up in a depression-like state, i may use the cash to keep my house, etc.
cm2187 6y ago
I think you meant economists. People working in finance are usually under no illusion of whether the market prices in all the information at a given time, and are rather focusing on who does what.
- Spooky23 6y ago
  I'm more talking about people in business in general. You'll see alot of posts on HN where people have faith-based belief in the market, for example. Finance people make their livings working around information asymmetry and optimizing for market outcomes. (But remember, the thumb is on the scale, and many are too big for the institutions to fail!) If the market were magically aware, they wouldn't have a job.
vikramkr 6y ago
Exactly, and it doesn't matter whether or not markets are actually efficient when it comes to explaining this price move. People were willing to pay what they paid for stocks yesterday. Today, news is better than expected. They'll now be willing to pay more. If they believe that markets are efficient, whether or not they actually are, that'll support buying even more. So better than expected news makes prices move up. The main point I'm trying to make is that this move isn't because traders are happy there's so much unemployment.

generalpass 6y ago

I am also suspicious of the market disconnect from the broader economy, but I wonder what the Fed is up to. They have announced they are going to purchase corporate debt, among many other things. In the last recession, they didn't report everything they put money into and it took an act of Congress to get a limited report of their otherwise unreported activities.

_curious_ 6y ago
Totally second this notion as there is no actual transparency into the market so no-one (save for maybe a select few insiders) actually know whatsup. Anyone who claims to know things (beyond an idea, theory, or speculation) about the equities market at large whether on HN or anywhere is outing themselves as full of it. This underlying opacity cannot be ignored for flies in the face of all the 'already priced in' arguments and 'rational actor' notions.
Nasrudith 6y ago
The official rationale is bank stability and credit requirements needing a certain minimum amount of liquid cash by law and it is collateraled loans. (Although corporate bonds as collateral is a concerning escalation as either needing to take them as they were out of free treasury bonds or worse given needlessly.) Do you know what sort of things were otherwise unreported?
samsonradu 6y ago
I'm also a bit suspicious (apolitically) about the current administration's 'attention' to the stock market. It's uncommon to see presidents tweeting all-time highs every week and it wouldn't surprise me if in a few years from now we found out some shady propping up had been going on.

themoops36 6y ago

Thanks for saying this. The "Priced In" fallacy has been on full display since the pandemic began. As late as a few weeks ago people were still talking about a "V-Shaped Recovery" and now the narrative is changing to a long, slow recovery. I have no claim to know exactly what's going on, but I don't think the markets are efficient, and I don't think they're random. I think decent theories are that the markets are reacting to unprecedented Fed action and/or there are a lot of retail investors attempting to "buy the dip". It's probably fair to say there are large disconnects from business fundamentals and what it actually means when economies shut down. Howard Marks put it in a way I find compelling: "The bottom is when there's no more optimism left" (paraphrasing). If I had to bet (and I am), I'd say there is a lot of wishful thinking going on. People want mid-March to be the bottom, so they buy, and so prices go up. Prices trend up and so... more people buy. Feels like a ton of confirmation bias with big consequences later on. I actually think we might see a change in investor sentiment once things do start opening up and everyone realizes the damage done (many businesses closed, defaults, still-high unemployment, etc.) Again, I'm no expert but it feels like a good time to be fearful w/r/t investments

ashtonkem 6y ago
Having worked in finance as a non-trader, people underestimate how group think-y professional traders can be.
frockington1 6y ago
Hasn't it already been pretty V-shaped? Sure some sectors are going to get hit harder than others but markets are already back to levels from a year ago
- ModernMech 6y ago
  "Recovery" refers to the economy, not the stock market. You can't say the economy has recovered yet while unemployment is still going up and GDP is still going down. The idea of a "V-shaped recovery" came from the notion that demand dropped and unemployment spiked because the government imposed lock downs, and once those lock downs were removed everything would just snap back to the way they were pre-corona.

mywittyname 6y ago

>The more likely scenario is the market is disconnected with economic conditions, Also, 1) passive investment represents a much larger fraction of stock holdings than in previous decades. 2) a significant fraction of these passive investments are held in retirement accounts which cannot be easily liquidated. 3) another significant fraction is held by wealthy buy-and-hold investors which may never need to liquidate assets. For the most part, I think the stock market is going to be stable for quite a while because there's really no viable investment alternatives. It's not like you can go into bonds because yields are basically nothing. Now, if some rules are passed that allow for 401ks to be liquidated without penalty, then that might be a cause for concern.

Izkata 6y ago
> Now, if some rules are passed that allow for 401ks to be liquidated without penalty, then that might be a cause for concern. The CARES act did that a month ago: https://www.businessinsider.com/personal-finance/coronavirus-relief-bill-early-retirement-withdrawals-be-cautious-2020-4 https://www.businessinsider.com/personal-finance/coronavirus...

cm2187 6y ago

There is also the drug addict reaction where more bad news means more QE coming means markets up rather than down.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]