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Why should this progress in economic development be enough to make it legitimate? I mean, even if we assumed that the end justifies the means and that all that

by nske 6y ago

Why should this progress in economic development be enough to make it legitimate? I mean, even if we assumed that the end justifies the means and that all that matters is economic prosperity, they didn't even have to do a lot of things right -just less badly than before (which admittedly wasn't that hard when someone looks at how bad they were). And if this progress happened to coincide with loosening up the restrictions of personal freedoms and the censorship that you mention, perhaps the case is that a government that allowed more freedoms might had facilitated even more progress.

FooBarWidget 6y ago
There is no proof that your latter claim is true. South Korea, Singapore and Taiwan were all authoritarian before they got economically prosperous. Only after that did they become democratic. The states in the middle east, which had democracy forced upon them, aren't doing that well either. It takes a while to get there, and not all stages of development of a country is a good match for democracy. And you say that it is not that hard to do things less badly than before. I disagree. The CCP is literally the first functional and competent government they've had in 150 years. I think you are massively underestimating how difficult it is to develop China. I am not saying economic concerns should forever be their number one priority. At some point that has to change. But is democracy really the best path for China right now? Do they deserve no credit for what they have already achieved?
- nske 6y ago
  Ok, I suppose we all have our priorities and biases. I can see how being able to feed for one's family can feel more urgent than being able to exercise their freedoms. Perhaps the (late) CCP deserves credit for improving economy, infrastructure, efficiency and quality of life, to the extent that it did. And for being less cruel than its predecessors. It is just that from the perspective of westerners, it is hard to judge positively a government that still has no respect for individual freedoms and private aspects of people's lives -i.e. looking the social score system, it is a step to the wrong direction. My worry is that if the Chinese people become complacent and just feel grateful that they have more prosperity than before, the day where they are able to enjoy the freedoms that every person deserves will be far. And that, if they are not used to having free access to information and being in control, it will be more likely for someone less peaceful than the current CCP leadership in the future to start a war or something.

by nske 6y ago

FooBarWidget 6y ago

There is no proof that your latter claim is true. South Korea, Singapore and Taiwan were all authoritarian before they got economically prosperous. Only after that did they become democratic. The states in the middle east, which had democracy forced upon them, aren't doing that well either. It takes a while to get there, and not all stages of development of a country is a good match for democracy. And you say that it is not that hard to do things less badly than before. I disagree. The CCP is literally the first functional and competent government they've had in 150 years. I think you are massively underestimating how difficult it is to develop China. I am not saying economic concerns should forever be their number one priority. At some point that has to change. But is democracy really the best path for China right now? Do they deserve no credit for what they have already achieved?

nske 6y ago
Ok, I suppose we all have our priorities and biases. I can see how being able to feed for one's family can feel more urgent than being able to exercise their freedoms. Perhaps the (late) CCP deserves credit for improving economy, infrastructure, efficiency and quality of life, to the extent that it did. And for being less cruel than its predecessors. It is just that from the perspective of westerners, it is hard to judge positively a government that still has no respect for individual freedoms and private aspects of people's lives -i.e. looking the social score system, it is a step to the wrong direction. My worry is that if the Chinese people become complacent and just feel grateful that they have more prosperity than before, the day where they are able to enjoy the freedoms that every person deserves will be far. And that, if they are not used to having free access to information and being in control, it will be more likely for someone less peaceful than the current CCP leadership in the future to start a war or something.