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> it comes off as a bit scummy. And patent trolls? They’re hardworking American businesspeople? Last I checked, their tactics were vexatious litigation, bullyi

> it comes off as a bit scummy. And patent trolls? They’re hardworking American businesspeople? Last I checked, their tactics were vexatious litigation, bullying, browbeating, and buying support. In short, if you’re going to fight a pig, you’re going to have to get in the mud with it. If you just stand there making reasoned arguments as to why the pig should lie down, the pig will just look at you, shit on the floor, and continue doing what it was doing.

hcknwscommenter 7y ago
Not everyone trying to patent a computer-implemented invention is a patent troll. Some of those applicants are actually creating a product/service. Some of them are spending b/millions creating things that were previously not considered possible. Should they be rewarded for the effort if in fact it is determined to be possible?
- wokwokwok 7y ago
  Not everyone, but statistically, the majority. If you want to be a “good guy” patent holder, why don’t you get involved in fighting patent trolls? ...no? Well, that’s because, unfortunately, the distinction between a troll and a “good guy” is a fine, often blurry line. There are other ways to monetise research, like, actually building things. Why not try that?
  - patentatt 7y ago
    Based on my experience as a patent examiner and a patent attorney, it’s definitely not “the majority” of applicants that can be considered any kind of “troll.” Like many other fields and aspects of life, it’s a highly vocal and visible minority that you’re mostly aware of, because the mundane players are, well, mundane.
    - dantheman 7y ago
      Really, do you think software patents have done more harm or good? Show me the vibrant ecosystem that software patents have enabled. Patents should never have been applied to software and they're a cancer on the industry.
      - patentatt 6y ago
        No, I pretty much agree, but just wanted to point out that an overwhelming majority of patents and patent applicants are very boring and don't make any headlines, ever. That's all.
    - wokwokwok 6y ago
      https://www.unifiedpatents.com/insights/2018/9/28/q3-2018-patent-dispute-report https://www.unifiedpatents.com/insights/2018/9/28/q3-2018-pa... > High Tech companies, both large entities and SMEs, face a disproportionate number of NPE-related threats as compared to other sectors. https://portal.unifiedpatents.com/ptab/annual-report?year=2018 https://portal.unifiedpatents.com/ptab/annual-report?year=20... I suppose, to be fair, if you are an NPE asserting a claim over what is legitimately your invention, are you a troll? Perhaps, since NPE enforcement is basically a game of threats and legal costs, you don’t see what is actually happening? Opinions vary. My position is quite simple: if you are an NPE, you’re a troll. Use it, or lose it.
      - patentatt 6y ago
        Yeah, I pretty much agree with much of that. Just pointing out that a majority of patents and patentees aren't really headline-grabbing or anything. Just boring paper shuffling that will never have any impact on anyone, good or bad.
pegasus 7y ago
That's just whataboutism though. And sure, in your analogy, you'll have to get in the mud, but that doesn't mean you have to also act like a pig, enjoying it and maybe even shitting on the floor too. Neither does EFF's mission require them to stoop at the level of whomever they are opposing.
ineedasername 7y ago
The fact that patent trolls are scummy doesn't exonerate other scummy behavior. As an example, we wouldn't accept violent protests as an appropriate counter to other people's violent protests. In this particular case, where the messages are borderline propaganda, that is unacceptable, especially when they could have kept the same exact content but added an abstract of the new guidance and greatly improved the quality of their article by actually providing material support for their point of view. Convenient metaphors of pig fighting are misleading and inaccurate. They promote a mentality of action based on anger rather than effectiveness. To avoid metaphors and give a concrete example of not lowering one's self to scummy tactics, you have only to look to the non-violent civil rights movements that have prevailed in the last hundred years. You also assume the "dirty pig" or scummy tactics are directed at the "opposition". They are not. When the EFF actually fights these battles, say in court, they cannot refer to general platitudes and content-less rhetoric, they must use reasoned arguments. Their scummy tactics in this article are directed at those they seek to support them!

hcknwscommenter 7y ago

Not everyone trying to patent a computer-implemented invention is a patent troll. Some of those applicants are actually creating a product/service. Some of them are spending b/millions creating things that were previously not considered possible. Should they be rewarded for the effort if in fact it is determined to be possible?

wokwokwok 7y ago
Not everyone, but statistically, the majority. If you want to be a “good guy” patent holder, why don’t you get involved in fighting patent trolls? ...no? Well, that’s because, unfortunately, the distinction between a troll and a “good guy” is a fine, often blurry line. There are other ways to monetise research, like, actually building things. Why not try that?
- patentatt 7y ago
  Based on my experience as a patent examiner and a patent attorney, it’s definitely not “the majority” of applicants that can be considered any kind of “troll.” Like many other fields and aspects of life, it’s a highly vocal and visible minority that you’re mostly aware of, because the mundane players are, well, mundane.
  - dantheman 7y ago
    Really, do you think software patents have done more harm or good? Show me the vibrant ecosystem that software patents have enabled. Patents should never have been applied to software and they're a cancer on the industry.
    - patentatt 6y ago
      No, I pretty much agree, but just wanted to point out that an overwhelming majority of patents and patent applicants are very boring and don't make any headlines, ever. That's all.
  - wokwokwok 6y ago
    https://www.unifiedpatents.com/insights/2018/9/28/q3-2018-patent-dispute-report https://www.unifiedpatents.com/insights/2018/9/28/q3-2018-pa... > High Tech companies, both large entities and SMEs, face a disproportionate number of NPE-related threats as compared to other sectors. https://portal.unifiedpatents.com/ptab/annual-report?year=2018 https://portal.unifiedpatents.com/ptab/annual-report?year=20... I suppose, to be fair, if you are an NPE asserting a claim over what is legitimately your invention, are you a troll? Perhaps, since NPE enforcement is basically a game of threats and legal costs, you don’t see what is actually happening? Opinions vary. My position is quite simple: if you are an NPE, you’re a troll. Use it, or lose it.
    - patentatt 6y ago
      Yeah, I pretty much agree with much of that. Just pointing out that a majority of patents and patentees aren't really headline-grabbing or anything. Just boring paper shuffling that will never have any impact on anyone, good or bad.

pegasus 7y ago

That's just whataboutism though. And sure, in your analogy, you'll have to get in the mud, but that doesn't mean you have to also act like a pig, enjoying it and maybe even shitting on the floor too. Neither does EFF's mission require them to stoop at the level of whomever they are opposing.

ineedasername 7y ago

The fact that patent trolls are scummy doesn't exonerate other scummy behavior. As an example, we wouldn't accept violent protests as an appropriate counter to other people's violent protests. In this particular case, where the messages are borderline propaganda, that is unacceptable, especially when they could have kept the same exact content but added an abstract of the new guidance and greatly improved the quality of their article by actually providing material support for their point of view. Convenient metaphors of pig fighting are misleading and inaccurate. They promote a mentality of action based on anger rather than effectiveness. To avoid metaphors and give a concrete example of not lowering one's self to scummy tactics, you have only to look to the non-violent civil rights movements that have prevailed in the last hundred years. You also assume the "dirty pig" or scummy tactics are directed at the "opposition". They are not. When the EFF actually fights these battles, say in court, they cannot refer to general platitudes and content-less rhetoric, they must use reasoned arguments. Their scummy tactics in this article are directed at those they seek to support them!