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Well met! I hope I don't sound like some maniac. In re: the organ harvesting, I really hope you're right. I mean I really fervently hope you're right. (It r

Well met! I hope I don't sound like some maniac. In re: the organ harvesting, I really hope you're right. I mean I really fervently hope you're right. (It reminds me of the Walled City of Kowloon. I saw a BBC documentary about it and was haunted for years. Then one day I looked it up and, lo and behold, they had torn it down years ago. Always value new information, eh?) > But the video footage speak for themselves. But they don't. I'm not going to watch that (I have firm policy not to watch footage of IRL death. I watched "Faces of Death" in high school with my friends and regretted it.) but whatever it shows I'm not a video expert so I can't tell what it actually is: it could be fake, or even deepfake. (FWIW I am firmly against setting people on fire, under pretty much any circumstance, for pretty much any reason. I think we can all agree that things have gone too far when someone gets immolated.) When you get right down to it, I have no idea what's really going on over there, and no way of finding out. The best I can do is go by things like the actual formal actions of the CCP, which don't seem good. (Although, as I say that, I recall that they presided over one of, if not the, greatest economic transformation on Earth. So: good job on that. Credit where credit is due.) > check out Daniel Dumbrill Despite what I just said, I'll do that. Always value new information, eh? > I'll also tell you my point of view. I was born in the mainland, I now live in the Netherlands. My wife is a mainlander too. You're right that China as a culture and civilization is older than the CPP. Having said that, having studied China's history, I do think the CCP is the legitimate government of the mainland. Cheers! Well met. FWIW, I'm serious when I say I like China. Y'all are like a stern and distant Grandfather: wise and kind but also a little frightening. Don't tell the other Americans I said that, though, okay? ;-) For me, it's useful emotionally to distinguish and blame "the Commies" because that way I can say to myself that Chinese people aren't to blame for the fucked up things the CCP does. In the USA, I feel that we are kind of all to blame for things like invading Iraq on a pretext, or electing a human cartoon character to be POTUS. > I do think the CCP is the legitimate government of the mainland. Yeah... * sigh * me too. But I don't like it. It's been long enough IMO, and they are stable enough (again in my almost-worthless opinion) and the UN let them in, yeah? Honestly, we over here were all set for the great Eastern Glasnost, if you will, and it's really a downer that China seems hung up on sabre-rattling. Can't we all just settle down and make some money? There are asteroids and Mars and places to go and things to do... > The claim that it's a "regime that punishes criticism" is overblown. There's a core of truth, but overblown. Things haven't been that extreme since the 70s. Nowadays there are many people who do in fact criticize the government. Again, I really and sincerely hope you are right! As an American the very idea that someone from the government would get on my case for speech is preposterous. "Donald Trump is a pathetic excuse for a President!" See? No one cares. But jokes aside, as long as the CCP is punishing criticism at all they'll never be fully legitimate (again, in my all-but-worthless opinion!) It's a weakness. Same with trying to rewrite history. They either have to get their act together and be big enough to admit mistakes -or- pressure the rest of the whole wide world into toeing the line on their political picture-show. That sets them on an inevitable clash with Western-style freedom of speech. It's bad policy even for a legitimate government. The stability of China is crucial to the whole world. If the legitimate government is weak that's a cause for concern. But again, I know just enough about China to know how inadequate my knowledge is, so this is all just the ranting of a rando on the internet, eh? :-) > For some perspective, try this video I will. Despite it all, always value new information, eh? > In 2019 there were protests in Guangdong about the building of a crematorium. https://mothership.sg/2019/12/news-china-protests-wenlou-hua.. https://mothership.sg/2019/12/news-china-protests-wenlou-hua.... The government did not arrest the peaceful protesters. They did arrest the violent ones, but even those were released later. Eventually, the government gave the protesters what they wanted. Okay, but that happens here too. That wasn't the same thing as standing in front of the White House with a sign saying "Donald Trump is Winnie the Pooh". > The people I talked to are on a VPN, operating on western websites, talking to me in private. The Chinese government is not monitoring those conversations. Alright, I'll credit that. Cheers. > Having lived in the west for so long, I also studied China for quite a while. The more I study, the more I realize that the western view of CCP is... not exactly wrong, but very very problematic. Now that I agree with. Thank you for an enlightening conversation, and I really will read/watch those links (not the one with the person getting burned to death, but the other ones) FWIW.

FooBarWidget 7y ago
Cheers, glad you're open to new perspectives. A few additions: The man who got burned didn't die. He got hospitalized for a few months. He is now recovered, but with scars and trauma. Here is an interview with his wife back when he was still in coma: https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/3038421/wife-hong-kong-man-set-fire-after-row-vandals-tells-chinese https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/3038421/wife... FYI, SCMP is based in HK, though they are partly owned by a mainland company. Still, I find that SCMP as a whole is pretty balanced. The site has a mix of pro and anti CCP articles. The sentiment varies between authors. > For me, it's useful emotionally to distinguish and blame "the Commies" because that way I can say to myself that Chinese people aren't to blame for the fucked up things the CCP does. I understand. To me, the people are to blame too. As explained in the article, CCP has 90 million members. Just the party only has more people than many EU countries. Many members are normal people: doctors, nurses, factory workers, businessmen. The CCP isn't a small elite who rules over the mainland, they are the fabric of mainland society. The madness of the cultural revolution wasn't a CCP only thing. Many people supported the madness, that's why it took off. We all own the madness. Nowadays we can see that it was wrong. I think there is nothing wrong with the normal people owning mistakes. I think it is rather crucial, in order to learn and move forward. > As an American the very idea that someone from the government would get on my case for speech is preposterous. I see what you mean. China still isn't quite on that level. But don't know whether it ever will be. But at the same time, I don't think it's fair to judge China by that standard. China has a very different history and condition. If you judge it by western standards, China will forever disappoint you, for nothing else but "it's not like the west". Here's what I think is a better perspective to judge China by: The country literally had 150 years of war, revolution and poverty. Starting 40 years ago or so, that is finally over. China was quite low on the Maslow pyramid of needs, so it's no wonder they prioritize food, safety, money, prosperity. And they succeeded in that. Everyone can eat, which was not at all a given. 200 million people lifted out of poverty -- the biggest contribution in the world. Universal Healthcare. Millions of Chinese travel to foreign countries every year, and pretty much all of them voluntarily go back. For the most part, Chinese people nowadays live a normal live. Economic freedom, the right to survival, the right to health, are human rights too. The CCP prioritizes those over freedom of speech. As a developing country, it is impossible to prioritize everything, so you have to make choices. It's also not just a case of "China is still behind the west, but they are working on it, give them a break". On some dimensions, they are ahead, or at least different. For example: Chinese cities are very safe. You can go out at night, into dark alleys, without getting mugged. The police don't carry guns, there's no need to. China managed to restore huge parts of deserts into green land. China as a state also faces threats. The censorship, which I don't like, is meant to protect against that. It's not so much criticism that they don't like (in fact there are official channels for submitting complaints), it's threats against the state. As an American that may sound weird, but recall that mainlanders are tired of 150 years of revolution. Now they want stability, unity, prosperity. And requires a stable state. The threats are not theoretical, as I've found out recently. A big threat comes from... The US. The US regularly stages coups against governments they don't like. Even democratic governments. Democratic Iran in the 60s. And just now, Venezuela. Part of the reason why the CCP top leadership is so secretive, and why they are making society more controlling, is to protect against US lead coups.

FooBarWidget 7y ago

Cheers, glad you're open to new perspectives. A few additions: The man who got burned didn't die. He got hospitalized for a few months. He is now recovered, but with scars and trauma. Here is an interview with his wife back when he was still in coma: https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/3038421/wife-hong-kong-man-set-fire-after-row-vandals-tells-chinese https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/3038421/wife... FYI, SCMP is based in HK, though they are partly owned by a mainland company. Still, I find that SCMP as a whole is pretty balanced. The site has a mix of pro and anti CCP articles. The sentiment varies between authors. > For me, it's useful emotionally to distinguish and blame "the Commies" because that way I can say to myself that Chinese people aren't to blame for the fucked up things the CCP does. I understand. To me, the people are to blame too. As explained in the article, CCP has 90 million members. Just the party only has more people than many EU countries. Many members are normal people: doctors, nurses, factory workers, businessmen. The CCP isn't a small elite who rules over the mainland, they are the fabric of mainland society. The madness of the cultural revolution wasn't a CCP only thing. Many people supported the madness, that's why it took off. We all own the madness. Nowadays we can see that it was wrong. I think there is nothing wrong with the normal people owning mistakes. I think it is rather crucial, in order to learn and move forward. > As an American the very idea that someone from the government would get on my case for speech is preposterous. I see what you mean. China still isn't quite on that level. But don't know whether it ever will be. But at the same time, I don't think it's fair to judge China by that standard. China has a very different history and condition. If you judge it by western standards, China will forever disappoint you, for nothing else but "it's not like the west". Here's what I think is a better perspective to judge China by: The country literally had 150 years of war, revolution and poverty. Starting 40 years ago or so, that is finally over. China was quite low on the Maslow pyramid of needs, so it's no wonder they prioritize food, safety, money, prosperity. And they succeeded in that. Everyone can eat, which was not at all a given. 200 million people lifted out of poverty -- the biggest contribution in the world. Universal Healthcare. Millions of Chinese travel to foreign countries every year, and pretty much all of them voluntarily go back. For the most part, Chinese people nowadays live a normal live. Economic freedom, the right to survival, the right to health, are human rights too. The CCP prioritizes those over freedom of speech. As a developing country, it is impossible to prioritize everything, so you have to make choices. It's also not just a case of "China is still behind the west, but they are working on it, give them a break". On some dimensions, they are ahead, or at least different. For example: Chinese cities are very safe. You can go out at night, into dark alleys, without getting mugged. The police don't carry guns, there's no need to. China managed to restore huge parts of deserts into green land. China as a state also faces threats. The censorship, which I don't like, is meant to protect against that. It's not so much criticism that they don't like (in fact there are official channels for submitting complaints), it's threats against the state. As an American that may sound weird, but recall that mainlanders are tired of 150 years of revolution. Now they want stability, unity, prosperity. And requires a stable state. The threats are not theoretical, as I've found out recently. A big threat comes from... The US. The US regularly stages coups against governments they don't like. Even democratic governments. Democratic Iran in the 60s. And just now, Venezuela. Part of the reason why the CCP top leadership is so secretive, and why they are making society more controlling, is to protect against US lead coups.