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In behavioral economics that’s sometimes referred to as “social norms versus market norms” [first useful link, 1]. The example given (I think it’s via Ariely)

by boulos 6y ago

In behavioral economics that’s sometimes referred to as “social norms versus market norms” [first useful link, 1]. The example given (I think it’s via Ariely) is that you wouldn’t pay your friend to have cooked you dinner. This is the same thing: there’s social contract value in helping your friend out, and they’re showing appreciation with a token. In fact, if you friend offers you more money than the pizza and beer, you are likely to be insulted by the lowball offer, since you now evaluate the suggestion in terms of work for hire via market norms. Social norms are so powerful though, that even if the friend offers you higher than your market rate, it’s still not worth it to take it, as it would shift your relationship (with lifetime value X) from a social one to a commercial one. Usually when people say “humans are irrational” they should be saying “people have complex utility / reward functions”! [1] https://www.behavioraleconomics.com/resources/introduction-behavioral-economics/ https://www.behavioraleconomics.com/resources/introduction-b...

TaylorAlexander 6y ago
Interesting comment! I have this relatively unconventional theory that, if we use automation just right and make the cost of food production, delivery, and preparation low enough, and also do so where ownership of the machinery is distributed throughout society, that we could make it a social norm to give anyone who needs it free food. All in a voluntary system. We just need to make the actual cost of the whole supply chain low enough that people don't care about giving away a bit for free. Like in the extreme case how cafes give out free wifi because the marginal cost of delivering wifi to one more person is so low. I could imagine shops having a "free food" option made using some low cost proteins and fiber and prepared using some cheap robot. And then they would charge for hand made food or something, using the free food as a loss leader. So my theory is that those robots need to be made as cheaply as possible. And that makes me think they need to be open source so anyone capable of manufacturing them can compete to supply them. Like how 3D printers got so cheap once the patents expired. They went from $30k to $300 in 20 years. The real trick is sustaining robotics businesses that can pay engineering talent to produce open source robotics. Prusa Research has succeeded here with their 3D printers, and I am hoping I am able to reproduce that success with the farming robot I am working on now. But we aren't certain we will make it open source. It depends on how we can sustain funding. I think it's very possible though and I'm committed to it. I think it's extremely interesting that Prusa Research can give all of their IP away and coexist in the market with clones at less than 1/2 the price. Users understand that the first party product is higher quality, and those that can afford it still buy from Prusa. There seems to be room in that market for both Prusa and the many clones. I wonder if we can reproduce this success with automation in other areas.
- eaenki 6y ago
  That’s the dumbest thing I ever heard. Not only it shows a complete lack of understanding about agriculture (e.g a cheeseburger sells $1 but just the water would cost more than that if not subsidized -> which leads to water waste which is scarce) but just think about it... agriculture itself is the original sin of humanity, which lead to the few great things that humanity built but also to the destruction of this planet and everything else And you’d just accelerate that
  - TaylorAlexander 6y ago
    My robot will, if we succeed, make it much cheaper to do organic agriculture. This would reduce our reliance on herbicides. Long term I hope we can automate more biointensive agriculture that uses complementary plants to ward off pests. If you truly feel that agriculture is an "original sin" then we need to fix that. Because we can't stop making food. We can only make food production more environmentally friendly.
  - piva00 6y ago
    Not if it was an intensive kind of agriculture, something similar to Dutch glasshouses but in a much more sustainable and advanced level. Don't constrain your imagination to the current reality...
- derekp7 6y ago
  So kind of like how a bar has a bowl of nuts or pretzels out for free. Or, at work, I bought a pastry from the cafeteria. About 5 minutes later they put out a whole platter of the same pastries in the dining area for free (they didn't sell, and would be dumped otherwise).
  - TaylorAlexander 6y ago
    Kind of!
- travisjungroth 6y ago
  It’ll be much like water in most of the world: free on a personal scale.
traes 6y ago
I mean, the pizza and beer offer also presumably includes spending time hanging out with your friend, the value of which cannot be equated with money.

by boulos 6y ago

TaylorAlexander 6y ago

Interesting comment! I have this relatively unconventional theory that, if we use automation just right and make the cost of food production, delivery, and preparation low enough, and also do so where ownership of the machinery is distributed throughout society, that we could make it a social norm to give anyone who needs it free food. All in a voluntary system. We just need to make the actual cost of the whole supply chain low enough that people don't care about giving away a bit for free. Like in the extreme case how cafes give out free wifi because the marginal cost of delivering wifi to one more person is so low. I could imagine shops having a "free food" option made using some low cost proteins and fiber and prepared using some cheap robot. And then they would charge for hand made food or something, using the free food as a loss leader. So my theory is that those robots need to be made as cheaply as possible. And that makes me think they need to be open source so anyone capable of manufacturing them can compete to supply them. Like how 3D printers got so cheap once the patents expired. They went from $30k to $300 in 20 years. The real trick is sustaining robotics businesses that can pay engineering talent to produce open source robotics. Prusa Research has succeeded here with their 3D printers, and I am hoping I am able to reproduce that success with the farming robot I am working on now. But we aren't certain we will make it open source. It depends on how we can sustain funding. I think it's very possible though and I'm committed to it. I think it's extremely interesting that Prusa Research can give all of their IP away and coexist in the market with clones at less than 1/2 the price. Users understand that the first party product is higher quality, and those that can afford it still buy from Prusa. There seems to be room in that market for both Prusa and the many clones. I wonder if we can reproduce this success with automation in other areas.

eaenki 6y ago
That’s the dumbest thing I ever heard. Not only it shows a complete lack of understanding about agriculture (e.g a cheeseburger sells $1 but just the water would cost more than that if not subsidized -> which leads to water waste which is scarce) but just think about it... agriculture itself is the original sin of humanity, which lead to the few great things that humanity built but also to the destruction of this planet and everything else And you’d just accelerate that
- TaylorAlexander 6y ago
  My robot will, if we succeed, make it much cheaper to do organic agriculture. This would reduce our reliance on herbicides. Long term I hope we can automate more biointensive agriculture that uses complementary plants to ward off pests. If you truly feel that agriculture is an "original sin" then we need to fix that. Because we can't stop making food. We can only make food production more environmentally friendly.
- piva00 6y ago
  Not if it was an intensive kind of agriculture, something similar to Dutch glasshouses but in a much more sustainable and advanced level. Don't constrain your imagination to the current reality...
derekp7 6y ago
So kind of like how a bar has a bowl of nuts or pretzels out for free. Or, at work, I bought a pastry from the cafeteria. About 5 minutes later they put out a whole platter of the same pastries in the dining area for free (they didn't sell, and would be dumped otherwise).
- TaylorAlexander 6y ago
  Kind of!
travisjungroth 6y ago
It’ll be much like water in most of the world: free on a personal scale.

traes 6y ago

I mean, the pizza and beer offer also presumably includes spending time hanging out with your friend, the value of which cannot be equated with money.