5 ms·

I think a large part of the issue is the default keybindings (the GUI is also bad, but I think it's bad in a way that's not going to be impossible to fix withou

by kick 6y ago

I think a large part of the issue is the default keybindings (the GUI is also bad, but I think it's bad in a way that's not going to be impossible to fix without screaming from people who like what's already there). It's truly only lacking a decent text editor. This isn't to say that the keybindings never made sense; in the stage of computing before X, where Space Cadet-like keyboards were common, it was more than fine. Currently, though? Entirely different era of computing. Imagine you're walking in with no clue. You haven't heard of any of the memes, someone just recommended you a text editor. "It's really good! You'll be more productive!" You have no idea what in the world evil is, or why you would ever want it. You launch the tutorial/tour/whatever it's called and immediately it yells at you to use C-v to jump to the next page. And then M-v to go backwards! If you're a normal user, your response is probably something along the lines of, "Like, why?" Off to a good start, breaking the most universal keybinding across modern operating systems in the strangest way possible, and not only that, but also breaking one of the biggest implicit rules of keybindings. You read a little bit more and eventually get to cursor control. Wow, somehow they managed to pick the only possible thing less intuitive than 'hjkl'! Not only that, but it's not even consistently unintuitive! And that's not even getting into the obvious problems that come with the placement of M and C on modern keyboards. There are a few solutions to this, obviously, but good luck trying to find a solution that isn't universally-hated. You could make evil the default. Controversial and only slightly helps the barrier to entry. You could make it like the Web's model of text-editing but with quality-of-life enhancements. I think this one is probably the winner. It's definitely why Sublime/VSC/Atom won, past everything else. The Turbo C/Wordstar approach was cool, but has no mind-share today. You could try something new, I guess? This is dangerous territory, though. I have no idea what the solution is, but the problem(s) seem obvious. I say this all as a person who really likes Emacs. I even still have most commands memorized despite not having touched it for years now!

dmortin 6y ago
> You launch the tutorial/tour/whatever it's called and immediately it yells at you to use C-v to jump to the next page. And then M-v to go backwards! If you're a normal user, your response is probably something along the lines of, "Like, why?" The hardcore emacs users think these keys are better. And don't want to change them, because then they had to rewrite the whole manual which uses these keys. The user don't have to use these keys, though, so there is no point in the tutorial starting with them.
- pwinnski 6y ago
  Right? And yet I just typed 'emacs tutorial' into DDG, and the first three results all hit you right away with descriptions of keys that don't physically exist on a modern keyboard. https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/tour/ https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/tour/ http://www.jesshamrick.com/2012/09/10/absolute-beginners-guide-to-emacs/ http://www.jesshamrick.com/2012/09/10/absolute-beginners-gui... https://www2.lib.uchicago.edu/keith/tcl-course/emacs-tutorial.html https://www2.lib.uchicago.edu/keith/tcl-course/emacs-tutoria... I've never tried emacs in large part because I've been convinced over the years that the various combinations of keys I would need to memorize are too complicated. I just did that search thinking that maybe I'd been mis-remembering, but no, that's still the impression that I have.
  - 1ark 6y ago
    I'm curious, how do you remember key combinations in other IDEs? I learned Vim, it was tough, but I remember a handful of commands I use all the time. And used Vim mode when available in IDEs when available. Spent a few years with VS Code, but I could never remember certain keys to navigate between panels for example. But the F1 key is great though. For w/e reason, I tried Emacs with evil-mode. I don't have to remember that many new keys I think, but a few of course. 'which-key' and M-x enables me to search for all commands, and I can also see the key combinations if I need to learn it later. In VS Code I try the F1 key, but if I could not find it there, I would grab the mouse and click around in menus looking for key combinations. Or go into settings and try to find w/e I was looking for. Of course, in Emacs I have spent hours setting things up, searching on the internet for clues on how to get something working as expected. Perhaps I am doing something non-optimal in my process. Curious how others learn/get productive in their respective IDEs.
    - pwinnski 6y ago
      In most IDEs, they're the same key combos I use in non-IDE products. I'm on a Mac, so Cmd-X, Cmd-C, and Cmd-V work pretty much everywhere. They even work at a terminal prompt, and the latter two work in vi. I did learn vi years ago, but I'm sure I still don't tap but 10% of its power, despite using it daily, precisely because the key combinations seem arcane to me.
pvg 6y ago
If that were the case, vim would not be as popular as it is.
- kick 6y ago
  vi is less unintuitive, as I noted above. There's also much less, which is really helpful.
  - pvg 6y ago
    vi is less unintuitive, as I noted above. I am having trouble finding that in your long comment. The initial experience of using vi and emacs are hardly different in some fundamental way so either being unintuitive seems like a poor way to explain their respective popularity (or lack thereof).
    - kick 6y ago
      You read a little bit more and eventually get to cursor control. Wow, somehow they managed to pick the only possible thing less intuitive than 'hjkl'! The initial experience of vi is that you learn six keys to press to make it do things, and go from there. Emacs is significantly more complex than that, starting out. It's definitely not intuitive, but it's an order of magnitude of difference from Emacs, which could be described as anti-intuitive.
      - pvg 6y ago
        Vi has text input modality, unlike essentially, well, anything. It's an entirely different model of operation which it shares with no current software and hasn't for a quarter century. It's strange to be talking about the UI details of vi/emacs (both, by current standards, about equally super-weird) when the article itself is a kind of perfect vignette of the organizational dysfunction of the group that maintains emacs.
        kick 6y ago
        'press i and then basically everything works as you'd expect' is pretty simple; it's got a significantly-smaller barrier to entry than Emacs, and breaks fewer core-assumptions. Is that agreeable to you? The thread on the mailing list was basically guesses as to why Emacs has lost popularity & methods of regaining it, and the lwn article is primarily focused on just relaying it. The thread itself doesn't point to all that much dysfunction, in my opinion.

by kick 6y ago

dmortin 6y ago

> You launch the tutorial/tour/whatever it's called and immediately it yells at you to use C-v to jump to the next page. And then M-v to go backwards! If you're a normal user, your response is probably something along the lines of, "Like, why?" The hardcore emacs users think these keys are better. And don't want to change them, because then they had to rewrite the whole manual which uses these keys. The user don't have to use these keys, though, so there is no point in the tutorial starting with them.

pwinnski 6y ago
Right? And yet I just typed 'emacs tutorial' into DDG, and the first three results all hit you right away with descriptions of keys that don't physically exist on a modern keyboard. https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/tour/ https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/tour/ http://www.jesshamrick.com/2012/09/10/absolute-beginners-guide-to-emacs/ http://www.jesshamrick.com/2012/09/10/absolute-beginners-gui... https://www2.lib.uchicago.edu/keith/tcl-course/emacs-tutorial.html https://www2.lib.uchicago.edu/keith/tcl-course/emacs-tutoria... I've never tried emacs in large part because I've been convinced over the years that the various combinations of keys I would need to memorize are too complicated. I just did that search thinking that maybe I'd been mis-remembering, but no, that's still the impression that I have.
- 1ark 6y ago
  I'm curious, how do you remember key combinations in other IDEs? I learned Vim, it was tough, but I remember a handful of commands I use all the time. And used Vim mode when available in IDEs when available. Spent a few years with VS Code, but I could never remember certain keys to navigate between panels for example. But the F1 key is great though. For w/e reason, I tried Emacs with evil-mode. I don't have to remember that many new keys I think, but a few of course. 'which-key' and M-x enables me to search for all commands, and I can also see the key combinations if I need to learn it later. In VS Code I try the F1 key, but if I could not find it there, I would grab the mouse and click around in menus looking for key combinations. Or go into settings and try to find w/e I was looking for. Of course, in Emacs I have spent hours setting things up, searching on the internet for clues on how to get something working as expected. Perhaps I am doing something non-optimal in my process. Curious how others learn/get productive in their respective IDEs.
  - pwinnski 6y ago
    In most IDEs, they're the same key combos I use in non-IDE products. I'm on a Mac, so Cmd-X, Cmd-C, and Cmd-V work pretty much everywhere. They even work at a terminal prompt, and the latter two work in vi. I did learn vi years ago, but I'm sure I still don't tap but 10% of its power, despite using it daily, precisely because the key combinations seem arcane to me.

pvg 6y ago

If that were the case, vim would not be as popular as it is.

kick 6y ago
vi is less unintuitive, as I noted above. There's also much less, which is really helpful.
- pvg 6y ago
  vi is less unintuitive, as I noted above. I am having trouble finding that in your long comment. The initial experience of using vi and emacs are hardly different in some fundamental way so either being unintuitive seems like a poor way to explain their respective popularity (or lack thereof).
  - kick 6y ago
    You read a little bit more and eventually get to cursor control. Wow, somehow they managed to pick the only possible thing less intuitive than 'hjkl'! The initial experience of vi is that you learn six keys to press to make it do things, and go from there. Emacs is significantly more complex than that, starting out. It's definitely not intuitive, but it's an order of magnitude of difference from Emacs, which could be described as anti-intuitive.
    - pvg 6y ago
      Vi has text input modality, unlike essentially, well, anything. It's an entirely different model of operation which it shares with no current software and hasn't for a quarter century. It's strange to be talking about the UI details of vi/emacs (both, by current standards, about equally super-weird) when the article itself is a kind of perfect vignette of the organizational dysfunction of the group that maintains emacs.
      - kick 6y ago
        'press i and then basically everything works as you'd expect' is pretty simple; it's got a significantly-smaller barrier to entry than Emacs, and breaks fewer core-assumptions. Is that agreeable to you? The thread on the mailing list was basically guesses as to why Emacs has lost popularity & methods of regaining it, and the lwn article is primarily focused on just relaying it. The thread itself doesn't point to all that much dysfunction, in my opinion.