14 ms·

Gig workers are organising in tech-savvy ways

203 points by edward 7y ago

paulpauper 7y ago
gig workers are going to be at a big disadvantage in coming months due to increased labor competition from laid off worker, depressing gig wages and increasing competition.
- DoreenMichele 7y ago
  Looked at from the other side: There is safety in numbers and this trend could help shift power to the worker, especially if they are savvy about organizing. I've done gig work for a few years now. I am pro gig work and I think it can be a good deal for the worker even though it currently has a terrible reputation as being a raw deal for the worker. I'm happy to see that the pandemic is fostering development of this sort in this area.
  - taurath 7y ago
    How do you prevent scabs when work is decentralized?
    - hinkley 7y ago
      Referrals still count for a lot in software. So the tricky bit will be that if the caliber of workers in your guild (or whatever you wish to call it) is below average, then you have to make it up in volume. If it's high, then you will get a feedback loop.
    - DoreenMichele 7y ago
      I have no idea, but I don't think you need perfect control over everything. The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will slip through your fingers. -- Princess Leia I think we just need to work out what is a reasonable rate and the expectation that gig work should be a means to make a living wage for people who do it and not just for some sliver of the people who do it, but for most people who do it. I'm okay with there being a learning curve and yadda, but it shouldn't be a situation where only some really tiny fraction of people have any hope of making it and then they have to live in terror of the rules changing overnight on them and killing their livelihood. Part of the value of labor movements is just setting the expectations for both sides that "You need to pay X amount for this." A lot of stuff we do is basically culturally determined and labor movements help shape culture and cultural expectations and so forth. So I don't think details like that are necessarily important. Sometimes they are, but sometimes they aren't. And sometimes they can be a real threat but don't have to be if you have your priorities straight. I don't care how we get there, I just would like to see gig work become something with a reputation as legitimate work that should reasonably support you if you meet some reasonable standard of quality and put in some reasonable number of hours. I think we need to ditch this idea that gig work is simply slave labor and is unfixable and needs to be converted to regular employment because that's the model we are familiar with and know how to package up in a way that works reasonably well for both sides.
    - LanceH 7y ago
      How do you prevent willing workers from working?
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
neonate 7y ago
https://archive.md/4weWH https://archive.md/4weWH
- yarinr 7y ago
  Thank you. Seems like everything is pay-walled these days...
bubbleRefuge 7y ago
Hoping someway, somehow, something like medicare for all comes to fruition at the national scale given that the economy will become even more of a gig economy than pre-corona. Can't understand how this is not being talked about much since Bernie dropped out. A good family plan for a gig worker (without subsidies) is like 1500 a month in major markets.
- vkou 7y ago
  > Can't understand how this is not being talked about much since Bernie dropped out. It's not being talked about much because it is unpalatable to the pro-big-business arm of the Democrat establishment. And you cannot find a more pro-establishment candidate than Biden. We'll get a chance to try again in four years.
  - wolco 7y ago
    You won't because the super delegates + plus press control over friendly outlets prevent candidates the public loves from winning and gives them candidates they are told they should like. And even though they look good on paper they never feel right. Then the general election happens and the other party wins because whoever their candidate is they generally have populist support. Once in a generation people do get the candidate they want but they give themselves a serious disadvantage each year.
    - blockmarker 7y ago
      Just because you don't like the candidate it doesn't mean that nobody else does.
    - drngdds 7y ago
      You what? Biden won because the public liked him more than Bernie, as you could see by the polls and the vote counts.
  - bubbleRefuge 7y ago
    You mean Big Insurance Big Pharma ? Because I think most businesses , big and small, would benefit from a universal medicare type solution. One less thing to worry about for them and presumably government funded/single payer/ yada yada. It seems to me the whole theory that government programs need to be "paid for" is out the window as the Fed has 6T on their balances sheets and Congress has instructed the Treasury to spend 1.5 or 2T on C19 relief by printing treasury securities(that the Fed can buy if needbe). So its not about how can we fund universal health care ( and also a more dignified Social security retirement system [leave that for another thread]) its about the will to freaking do it and stand up to Big Pharma, Big Medicine, and Big Insurance lobbies.
DevX101 7y ago
I'm surprised it's taken this long for some tech enabled labor platform to emerge. Power is gained by coordinating some portion of the value chain into a single node. Amazon is powerful because they can centralize demand into a single node (Amazon.com) and then force suppliers to play their game. Saudi Arabia is powerful because they can centralize the supply of oil into a single node (AramCo) and then force buyers to pay their price via OPEC. Labor doesn't have a centralizing node, and is consequently powerless. Even engineers, relatively well paid as they are, are somewhat powerless. The high salary commanded here is due to autonomous market forces, not a coordinated strategy. Unions used to be strong before the 70s but they've gotten successfully defanged by political parties. There's definitely room for building MASSIVE and powerful without the political corruption of yesteryear's unions.
- cced 7y ago
  Do you recommend any resources that I can read regarding the defanging of unions?
  - DevX101 7y ago
    I don't study this academically so don't have any good sources offhand. But the history of union busting has a long history in this country. In the 1890s steel workers tried to unionize and strike and Andrew Carnergie sent in the Pinkerton's (private precursor to today's FBI) to spy on the unions and break up strikes. They'd do this violently and many people got killed. Today it's less physically violent, but if you get a job as a floor worker at a big company like Walmart, you've got mandatory videos about how terrible unions are. And yes, you will be fired if the word 'union' comes out your mouth on company property.
    - mountainboot 7y ago
      Not just floor workers.
  - _jal 7y ago
    It isn't quite what you're asking for, but _A History of America in Ten Strikes_ by Eric Loomis is a great book of the general history of American labor. The telling of the stories includes a lot of the strategy and tactics, legal and otherwise, of busting unions down to where they are now. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B078XKHSSB https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B078XKHSSB
formalsystem 7y ago
I went out to grab a burger last night and there was a huge line of Uber Eats drivers and they were waiting for what seemed like a long time especially considering how little they're paid. Is there any reason why an OSS Uber competitor wouldn't be tractable? Drivers and passengers can pay a small booking fee which would go towards maintaining server costs. Client app can be really bare bones and I believe people would be willing to use it if it's way cheaper. So many scammy people talking about decentralized computing but this seems like a low hanging fruit which gives gig workers their autonomy back. Same question for all gig worker apps.
- clairity 7y ago
  i thought about this recently too. the technological complexities are not trivial, but they're dwarfed by the operational, marketing, and regulatory ones. for instance, who handles crimes like assault or theft between the various parties? who sets up payments and issues refunds? i'd love to organize/contribute to something like this, but it has some serious hurdles to think through.
  - spaced-out 7y ago
    Even the technical challenges are significant. It's one thing to make an app, it's another thing to have a 24/7, global, distributed application with lots of money running through it. You'll need site-reliability teams to handle maintenance issues and a significant number of developers on staff. If there's some new law, regulation, or bug which requires changes to your system it needs to be done NOW, not whenever someone gets around to it. >who handles crimes like assault or theft between the various parties? who sets up payments and issues refunds? Lawyers. You're going to need a lot of lawyers.
    - clairity 7y ago
      yes, i didn't mean to imply that the technical challenges weren't substantial. real-time matching and routing are also not trivial.
  - eblanshey 7y ago
jadbox 7y ago
Anyone have an un-paywalled mirror? It's surprising to read anything semi pro-worker coming from the economist, which run far more articles against unions and worker rights than giving a fair analysis.
- asciimike 7y ago
  http://archive.is/4weWH http://archive.is/4weWH
unnouinceput 7y ago
Bottom line either billionaires (in general and Jeff in particular) will be somehow forced to either come up with a COVID vaccine so people will go back to "normal" or will have to shell serious money to protect the workers. Either way I see this as a win-win situation.
telaelit 7y ago
I wish my company would organize and unionize
Asore 6y ago
HAVE YOU LOST YOUR MONEY TO BINARY SCAMMERS OR ANY ONLINE SCAM WHATSOEVER?, HAVE YOU BEEN IN SEARCH FOR GENUINE HACKER'S ONLINE?. WELL, YOU HAVE FOUND REDEMPTION IN ASORE CORP. Asore Corp is a Russian based group of multinational Hacker's, an affiliate of Evil Corp. We have mutual interests obliged to fight online scam and scammers in general. In doing this, we make sure by all means necessary that our clients get the best of services on aPAYMENT AFTER JOB IS DONE BASIS️. This means we accept workmanship fee after your job is done. ️ BEWARE OF FRAUDSTARS if you have been a VICTIM, contact us via: mercurycrimewatch@gmail Amongst others, services we offer are listed as follows : Bank accounts loading ️ Social media hack, (Facebook, Instagram, snapchat etc)️ Credit card top up,️ Credit card dept clearing.️ Database hack,️ Money transfer,️ Verified Paypal Accounts hack,️ E mail hack,️ College score upgrade ,️ Android & iPhone Hack️ BinaryOption funds recovery. ️ Also, WEBSITE HACK️ CLEARING CRIMINAL RECORDS ️ COLLEGE GRADE UPGRADE ️ HACKED ACCOUNT RESOLUTION️ STOLEN BITCOIN$️ PHISHING OF BITCOIN ACCOUNT️ LOGIN ERROS️ SCAM DURING BITCOIN TRADINGS️ Waste no further time. CONTACT: asorehackcorp@gmail.com cryptocoinintel@gmail.com ©️2020 Asore Corp®️ All rights reserved

203 points by edward 7y ago

gig workers are going to be at a big disadvantage in coming months due to increased labor competition from laid off worker, depressing gig wages and increasing competition.

DoreenMichele 7y ago
Looked at from the other side: There is safety in numbers and this trend could help shift power to the worker, especially if they are savvy about organizing. I've done gig work for a few years now. I am pro gig work and I think it can be a good deal for the worker even though it currently has a terrible reputation as being a raw deal for the worker. I'm happy to see that the pandemic is fostering development of this sort in this area.
- taurath 7y ago
  How do you prevent scabs when work is decentralized?
  - hinkley 7y ago
    Referrals still count for a lot in software. So the tricky bit will be that if the caliber of workers in your guild (or whatever you wish to call it) is below average, then you have to make it up in volume. If it's high, then you will get a feedback loop.
  - DoreenMichele 7y ago
    I have no idea, but I don't think you need perfect control over everything. The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will slip through your fingers. -- Princess Leia I think we just need to work out what is a reasonable rate and the expectation that gig work should be a means to make a living wage for people who do it and not just for some sliver of the people who do it, but for most people who do it. I'm okay with there being a learning curve and yadda, but it shouldn't be a situation where only some really tiny fraction of people have any hope of making it and then they have to live in terror of the rules changing overnight on them and killing their livelihood. Part of the value of labor movements is just setting the expectations for both sides that "You need to pay X amount for this." A lot of stuff we do is basically culturally determined and labor movements help shape culture and cultural expectations and so forth. So I don't think details like that are necessarily important. Sometimes they are, but sometimes they aren't. And sometimes they can be a real threat but don't have to be if you have your priorities straight. I don't care how we get there, I just would like to see gig work become something with a reputation as legitimate work that should reasonably support you if you meet some reasonable standard of quality and put in some reasonable number of hours. I think we need to ditch this idea that gig work is simply slave labor and is unfixable and needs to be converted to regular employment because that's the model we are familiar with and know how to package up in a way that works reasonably well for both sides.
  - LanceH 7y ago
    How do you prevent willing workers from working?
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

neonate 7y ago

https://archive.md/4weWH https://archive.md/4weWH

yarinr 7y ago
Thank you. Seems like everything is pay-walled these days...

bubbleRefuge 7y ago

Hoping someway, somehow, something like medicare for all comes to fruition at the national scale given that the economy will become even more of a gig economy than pre-corona. Can't understand how this is not being talked about much since Bernie dropped out. A good family plan for a gig worker (without subsidies) is like 1500 a month in major markets.

vkou 7y ago
> Can't understand how this is not being talked about much since Bernie dropped out. It's not being talked about much because it is unpalatable to the pro-big-business arm of the Democrat establishment. And you cannot find a more pro-establishment candidate than Biden. We'll get a chance to try again in four years.
- wolco 7y ago
  You won't because the super delegates + plus press control over friendly outlets prevent candidates the public loves from winning and gives them candidates they are told they should like. And even though they look good on paper they never feel right. Then the general election happens and the other party wins because whoever their candidate is they generally have populist support. Once in a generation people do get the candidate they want but they give themselves a serious disadvantage each year.
  - blockmarker 7y ago
    Just because you don't like the candidate it doesn't mean that nobody else does.
  - drngdds 7y ago
    You what? Biden won because the public liked him more than Bernie, as you could see by the polls and the vote counts.
- bubbleRefuge 7y ago
  You mean Big Insurance Big Pharma ? Because I think most businesses , big and small, would benefit from a universal medicare type solution. One less thing to worry about for them and presumably government funded/single payer/ yada yada. It seems to me the whole theory that government programs need to be "paid for" is out the window as the Fed has 6T on their balances sheets and Congress has instructed the Treasury to spend 1.5 or 2T on C19 relief by printing treasury securities(that the Fed can buy if needbe). So its not about how can we fund universal health care ( and also a more dignified Social security retirement system [leave that for another thread]) its about the will to freaking do it and stand up to Big Pharma, Big Medicine, and Big Insurance lobbies.

DevX101 7y ago

I'm surprised it's taken this long for some tech enabled labor platform to emerge. Power is gained by coordinating some portion of the value chain into a single node. Amazon is powerful because they can centralize demand into a single node (Amazon.com) and then force suppliers to play their game. Saudi Arabia is powerful because they can centralize the supply of oil into a single node (AramCo) and then force buyers to pay their price via OPEC. Labor doesn't have a centralizing node, and is consequently powerless. Even engineers, relatively well paid as they are, are somewhat powerless. The high salary commanded here is due to autonomous market forces, not a coordinated strategy. Unions used to be strong before the 70s but they've gotten successfully defanged by political parties. There's definitely room for building MASSIVE and powerful without the political corruption of yesteryear's unions.

cced 7y ago
Do you recommend any resources that I can read regarding the defanging of unions?
- DevX101 7y ago
  I don't study this academically so don't have any good sources offhand. But the history of union busting has a long history in this country. In the 1890s steel workers tried to unionize and strike and Andrew Carnergie sent in the Pinkerton's (private precursor to today's FBI) to spy on the unions and break up strikes. They'd do this violently and many people got killed. Today it's less physically violent, but if you get a job as a floor worker at a big company like Walmart, you've got mandatory videos about how terrible unions are. And yes, you will be fired if the word 'union' comes out your mouth on company property.
  - mountainboot 7y ago
    Not just floor workers.
- _jal 7y ago
  It isn't quite what you're asking for, but _A History of America in Ten Strikes_ by Eric Loomis is a great book of the general history of American labor. The telling of the stories includes a lot of the strategy and tactics, legal and otherwise, of busting unions down to where they are now. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B078XKHSSB https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B078XKHSSB

formalsystem 7y ago

I went out to grab a burger last night and there was a huge line of Uber Eats drivers and they were waiting for what seemed like a long time especially considering how little they're paid. Is there any reason why an OSS Uber competitor wouldn't be tractable? Drivers and passengers can pay a small booking fee which would go towards maintaining server costs. Client app can be really bare bones and I believe people would be willing to use it if it's way cheaper. So many scammy people talking about decentralized computing but this seems like a low hanging fruit which gives gig workers their autonomy back. Same question for all gig worker apps.

clairity 7y ago
i thought about this recently too. the technological complexities are not trivial, but they're dwarfed by the operational, marketing, and regulatory ones. for instance, who handles crimes like assault or theft between the various parties? who sets up payments and issues refunds? i'd love to organize/contribute to something like this, but it has some serious hurdles to think through.
- spaced-out 7y ago
  Even the technical challenges are significant. It's one thing to make an app, it's another thing to have a 24/7, global, distributed application with lots of money running through it. You'll need site-reliability teams to handle maintenance issues and a significant number of developers on staff. If there's some new law, regulation, or bug which requires changes to your system it needs to be done NOW, not whenever someone gets around to it. >who handles crimes like assault or theft between the various parties? who sets up payments and issues refunds? Lawyers. You're going to need a lot of lawyers.
  - clairity 7y ago
    yes, i didn't mean to imply that the technical challenges weren't substantial. real-time matching and routing are also not trivial.
- eblanshey 7y ago

jadbox 7y ago

Anyone have an un-paywalled mirror? It's surprising to read anything semi pro-worker coming from the economist, which run far more articles against unions and worker rights than giving a fair analysis.

asciimike 7y ago
http://archive.is/4weWH http://archive.is/4weWH

unnouinceput 7y ago

Bottom line either billionaires (in general and Jeff in particular) will be somehow forced to either come up with a COVID vaccine so people will go back to "normal" or will have to shell serious money to protect the workers. Either way I see this as a win-win situation.

telaelit 7y ago

I wish my company would organize and unionize

Asore 6y ago

HAVE YOU LOST YOUR MONEY TO BINARY SCAMMERS OR ANY ONLINE SCAM WHATSOEVER?, HAVE YOU BEEN IN SEARCH FOR GENUINE HACKER'S ONLINE?. WELL, YOU HAVE FOUND REDEMPTION IN ASORE CORP. Asore Corp is a Russian based group of multinational Hacker's, an affiliate of Evil Corp. We have mutual interests obliged to fight online scam and scammers in general. In doing this, we make sure by all means necessary that our clients get the best of services on aPAYMENT AFTER JOB IS DONE BASIS️. This means we accept workmanship fee after your job is done. ️ BEWARE OF FRAUDSTARS if you have been a VICTIM, contact us via: mercurycrimewatch@gmail Amongst others, services we offer are listed as follows : Bank accounts loading ️ Social media hack, (Facebook, Instagram, snapchat etc)️ Credit card top up,️ Credit card dept clearing.️ Database hack,️ Money transfer,️ Verified Paypal Accounts hack,️ E mail hack,️ College score upgrade ,️ Android & iPhone Hack️ BinaryOption funds recovery. ️ Also, WEBSITE HACK️ CLEARING CRIMINAL RECORDS ️ COLLEGE GRADE UPGRADE ️ HACKED ACCOUNT RESOLUTION️ STOLEN BITCOIN$️ PHISHING OF BITCOIN ACCOUNT️ LOGIN ERROS️ SCAM DURING BITCOIN TRADINGS️ Waste no further time. CONTACT: asorehackcorp@gmail.com cryptocoinintel@gmail.com ©️2020 Asore Corp®️ All rights reserved