4 ms·

You list a bunch of terms, but pretty much all of those things have a different side to the story. I'll start with one thing, because addressing them all takes

You list a bunch of terms, but pretty much all of those things have a different side to the story. I'll start with one thing, because addressing them all takes too long. You think the Hong Kong rioters are fighting for freedom? Take a look at how they attack innocent women and elderly that simply disagree with them: https://twitter.com/Mondayfreemary/status/1258440378367324160 https://twitter.com/Mondayfreemary/status/125844037836732416... Western media romanticizes the whole thing by not reporting anything about the dark side of the movement, and by cutting footage to make the rioters look like heroes: https://twitter.com/DanielDumbrill/status/1258357602850754560 https://twitter.com/DanielDumbrill/status/125835760285075456... Here's the real story, I've written a summary just earlier today: https://twitter.com/honglilai/status/1258294860618108928 https://twitter.com/honglilai/status/1258294860618108928 This isn't just about one or two people who are criminals. The rioting, the violence, the hate for mainlanders (hate for PEOPLE, not just CCP) has completely taken over the movement. Heck, I don't even dare going to Hong Kong anymore -- as someone with a mainland background, I fear for my life. Furthermore, 'Liking China but opposing CCP' is, in actuality, a statement that doesn't make much sense once you understand how the CCP - Chinese people relationship actually works: https://twitter.com/Bkerrychina/status/1253635970236375040 https://twitter.com/Bkerrychina/status/1253635970236375040 The CCP enjoys a pretty high level of support in China. Real support. Even many people who use VPN to use Twitter say they support the CCP. This support has grown tremendously in the past decade, in no small part thanks to all the demonization bullshit that western media tries to pull on China. Many Chinese read western media, think 'wtf is this overblown nonsense?', and end up supporting CCP more, even if they were previously neutral or slightly anti. My point: by listing all those terms, you are painting a one-dimensional, stereotypical, overblown and distorted view of China. If you really want to help Chinese people, you gotta first understand where they come from. This begins with gaining an accurate image of what China is, not the media stereotype.

carapace 6y ago
> You list a bunch of terms as if in a 'gotcha' manner, but pretty much all of those things have a different side to the story. I'll start with one thing, because addressing them all takes too long. What is the "different side to the story" of involuntary organ harvesting of political and religious prisoners? > You think the Hong Kong rioters are fighting for freedom? Yes. > Take a look at how they attack innocent women and elderly that simply disagree with them: https://twitter.com/Mondayfreemary/status/125844037836732416.. https://twitter.com/Mondayfreemary/status/125844037836732416.... I looked but the video wouldn't play. If that's what happened then that's also bad. Anyway, I don't get my news from Twitter. I also don't get my news from mainstream Western new media because they are biased (I agree with you about that.) > Furthermore, 'Liking China but opposing CCP' is, in actuality, a statement that doesn't make much sense once you understand how the CCP - Chinese people relationship actually works: https://twitter.com/Bkerrychina/status/1253635970236375040 https://twitter.com/Bkerrychina/status/1253635970236375040 I'll read that article, FWIW. Cheers. But I can tell you what I mean when I say that. Chinese culture is a part of my culture. I grew up in San Francisco. There has always been a Chinese cultural influence in my life. The first Chinese New Years Parade was held here in 1851 (predating the communist party by ~70-80 years, eh?) Also, there are millions of Chinese that do not live in China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overseas_Chinese https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overseas_Chinese So China as a people and a culture is much much older and larger than the communists. That is the China that lives in my affections. I want to add that Lao Tzu's "Tao Te Ching" is the greatest book of wisdom in the world (in my opinion.) CCP != China > The CCP enjoys a pretty high level of support in China. Real support. Even many people who use VPN to use Twitter say they support the CCP. This support has grown tremendously in the past decade, in no small part thanks to all the demonization bullshit that western media tries to pull on China. Many Chinese read western media, think 'wtf is this overblown nonsense?', and end up supporting CCP more, even if they were previously neutral or slightly anti. You cannot possibly know that with any certainty in a regime that punishes criticism! You just can't. People lie when you've got a big stick in your hand to beat them with if you don't like what you hear, eh? > My point: by listing all those terms, you are painting a one-dimensional, stereotypical, overblown and distorted view of China. "...of the CCP" you mean. I don't blame Chinese people for the crimes of the CCP. > If you really want to help Chinese people, you gotta first understand where they come from. A billion and a half people don't need any help from me. > This begins with gaining an accurate image of what China is, not the media stereotype. I don't know what to tell you. Like I said, I don't follow the media. FWIW, I straight up studied China for awhile until I realized how vast it was and how silly and arrogant I was to think that I could possibly encompass it. Now all I want is for the CCP to stop trying to edit history, stop locking people in mass concentration camps, stop stealing their organs, and stop fucking with the South China Sea. Those seem simple enough for even me to opine on, in all my ignorance.
- FooBarWidget 6y ago
  > What is the "different side to the story" of involuntary organ harvesting of political and religious prisoners? It's about the accuracy of the claim that there's involuntary harvesting going on: https://thegrayzone.com/2019/09/30/reports-china-organ-harvesting-cult-falun-gong/ https://thegrayzone.com/2019/09/30/reports-china-organ-harve... There was harvesting going on of prisoners that have already been executed. China admitted as much: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbxvZ2lIR08 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbxvZ2lIR08 This practice has stopped since 2015. > Anyway, I don't get my news from Twitter. Unfortunately, there's not much I can do about the fact that most media outlets don't publish videos like these. But the video footage speak for themselves. Here's evidence of rioters setting a man on fire for disagreeing with them: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gblPwStlsQs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gblPwStlsQs If you are interested in a more long-form discussion about what's going on in Hong Kong, check out Daniel Dumbrill, a Canadian who lived in Hong Kong and now lives in Shenzhen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQx5NKAfueg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQx5NKAfueg > I'll read that article, FWIW. Cheers. Thanks. I'm already plenty glad that you're at least willing to take a look, even if you disagree. > But I can tell you what I mean when I say that. All right, point taken. For the sake of discussion, I'll limit my scope here to mainlanders, not the diaspora. I'll also tell you my point of view. I was born in the mainland, I now live in the Netherlands. My wife is a mainlander too. You're right that China as a culture and civilization is older than the CPP. Having said that, having studied China's history, I do think the CCP is the legitimate government of the mainland. > You cannot possibly know that with any certainty in a regime that punishes criticism! The claim that it's a "regime that punishes criticism" is overblown. There's a core of truth, but overblown. Things haven't been that extreme since the 70s. Nowadays there are many people who do in fact criticize the government. For some perspective, try this video. This is an interview between an American and a Canadian, who both live in China. They discuss their experience with Chinese society, and things (including things about the government) are different from what they thought it is based on western views: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufxfSJgQuSI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufxfSJgQuSI It also kinda depends on what you mean by criticize. If you try to incite riots or government overthrow, or if you work with foreign agencies -- yeah they REALLY don't like that sort of stuff, and you'll get into a lot of trouble. But for more perspective, try this example: In 2019 there were protests in Guangdong about the building of a crematorium. https://mothership.sg/2019/12/news-china-protests-wenlou-huazhou-guangdong/ https://mothership.sg/2019/12/news-china-protests-wenlou-hua... The government did not arrest the peaceful protesters. They did arrest the violent ones, but even those were released later. Eventually, the government gave the protesters what they wanted. > People lie when you've got a big stick in your hand to beat them with if you don't like what you hear, eh? The people I talked to are on a VPN, operating on western websites, talking to me in private. The Chinese government is not monitoring those conversations. Having lived in the west for so long, I also studied China for quite a while. The more I study, the more I realize that the western view of CCP is... not exactly wrong, but very very problematic.
msla 6y ago
> Furthermore, 'Liking China but opposing CCP' is, in actuality, a statement that doesn't make much sense once you understand how the CCP - Chinese people relationship actually works: https://twitter.com/Bkerrychina/status/1253635970236375040 https://twitter.com/Bkerrychina/status/1253635970236375040 Taiwan and the Republic of China debunks this.
- FooBarWidget 6y ago
  What sort of debunking are you referring to? Maybe you're talking about how Taiwan does not like the CCP. Correct. So let me be clear: when I said "Chinese people" I'm referring to mainlanders.
  - msla 6y ago
    > So let me be clear: when I said "Chinese people" I'm referring to mainlanders. You claim that all mainlanders like the CCP, which is a spurious claim given not only how impossible it is to generalize over such a huge group (including people the CCP is actively persecuting, such as Uyghurs!) but also because the CCP actively punishes people who speak against it. Even aside from that, your conflation of "Chinese" and "mainlanders" and further conflation of "Chinese" and "mainlanders who like the CCP" is precisely what I'm talking about. It's improper, it's politically biased, and it destroys the conversation we're supposedly trying to have here.
    - FooBarWidget 6y ago
      Not all. High level of support. There are those who are against. But overall, support is strong. > but also because the CCP actively punishes people who speak against it. See my other thread regarding this topic.

carapace 6y ago

> You list a bunch of terms as if in a 'gotcha' manner, but pretty much all of those things have a different side to the story. I'll start with one thing, because addressing them all takes too long. What is the "different side to the story" of involuntary organ harvesting of political and religious prisoners? > You think the Hong Kong rioters are fighting for freedom? Yes. > Take a look at how they attack innocent women and elderly that simply disagree with them: https://twitter.com/Mondayfreemary/status/125844037836732416.. https://twitter.com/Mondayfreemary/status/125844037836732416.... I looked but the video wouldn't play. If that's what happened then that's also bad. Anyway, I don't get my news from Twitter. I also don't get my news from mainstream Western new media because they are biased (I agree with you about that.) > Furthermore, 'Liking China but opposing CCP' is, in actuality, a statement that doesn't make much sense once you understand how the CCP - Chinese people relationship actually works: https://twitter.com/Bkerrychina/status/1253635970236375040 https://twitter.com/Bkerrychina/status/1253635970236375040 I'll read that article, FWIW. Cheers. But I can tell you what I mean when I say that. Chinese culture is a part of my culture. I grew up in San Francisco. There has always been a Chinese cultural influence in my life. The first Chinese New Years Parade was held here in 1851 (predating the communist party by ~70-80 years, eh?) Also, there are millions of Chinese that do not live in China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overseas_Chinese https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overseas_Chinese So China as a people and a culture is much much older and larger than the communists. That is the China that lives in my affections. I want to add that Lao Tzu's "Tao Te Ching" is the greatest book of wisdom in the world (in my opinion.) CCP != China > The CCP enjoys a pretty high level of support in China. Real support. Even many people who use VPN to use Twitter say they support the CCP. This support has grown tremendously in the past decade, in no small part thanks to all the demonization bullshit that western media tries to pull on China. Many Chinese read western media, think 'wtf is this overblown nonsense?', and end up supporting CCP more, even if they were previously neutral or slightly anti. You cannot possibly know that with any certainty in a regime that punishes criticism! You just can't. People lie when you've got a big stick in your hand to beat them with if you don't like what you hear, eh? > My point: by listing all those terms, you are painting a one-dimensional, stereotypical, overblown and distorted view of China. "...of the CCP" you mean. I don't blame Chinese people for the crimes of the CCP. > If you really want to help Chinese people, you gotta first understand where they come from. A billion and a half people don't need any help from me. > This begins with gaining an accurate image of what China is, not the media stereotype. I don't know what to tell you. Like I said, I don't follow the media. FWIW, I straight up studied China for awhile until I realized how vast it was and how silly and arrogant I was to think that I could possibly encompass it. Now all I want is for the CCP to stop trying to edit history, stop locking people in mass concentration camps, stop stealing their organs, and stop fucking with the South China Sea. Those seem simple enough for even me to opine on, in all my ignorance.

FooBarWidget 6y ago
> What is the "different side to the story" of involuntary organ harvesting of political and religious prisoners? It's about the accuracy of the claim that there's involuntary harvesting going on: https://thegrayzone.com/2019/09/30/reports-china-organ-harvesting-cult-falun-gong/ https://thegrayzone.com/2019/09/30/reports-china-organ-harve... There was harvesting going on of prisoners that have already been executed. China admitted as much: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbxvZ2lIR08 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbxvZ2lIR08 This practice has stopped since 2015. > Anyway, I don't get my news from Twitter. Unfortunately, there's not much I can do about the fact that most media outlets don't publish videos like these. But the video footage speak for themselves. Here's evidence of rioters setting a man on fire for disagreeing with them: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gblPwStlsQs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gblPwStlsQs If you are interested in a more long-form discussion about what's going on in Hong Kong, check out Daniel Dumbrill, a Canadian who lived in Hong Kong and now lives in Shenzhen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQx5NKAfueg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQx5NKAfueg > I'll read that article, FWIW. Cheers. Thanks. I'm already plenty glad that you're at least willing to take a look, even if you disagree. > But I can tell you what I mean when I say that. All right, point taken. For the sake of discussion, I'll limit my scope here to mainlanders, not the diaspora. I'll also tell you my point of view. I was born in the mainland, I now live in the Netherlands. My wife is a mainlander too. You're right that China as a culture and civilization is older than the CPP. Having said that, having studied China's history, I do think the CCP is the legitimate government of the mainland. > You cannot possibly know that with any certainty in a regime that punishes criticism! The claim that it's a "regime that punishes criticism" is overblown. There's a core of truth, but overblown. Things haven't been that extreme since the 70s. Nowadays there are many people who do in fact criticize the government. For some perspective, try this video. This is an interview between an American and a Canadian, who both live in China. They discuss their experience with Chinese society, and things (including things about the government) are different from what they thought it is based on western views: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufxfSJgQuSI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufxfSJgQuSI It also kinda depends on what you mean by criticize. If you try to incite riots or government overthrow, or if you work with foreign agencies -- yeah they REALLY don't like that sort of stuff, and you'll get into a lot of trouble. But for more perspective, try this example: In 2019 there were protests in Guangdong about the building of a crematorium. https://mothership.sg/2019/12/news-china-protests-wenlou-huazhou-guangdong/ https://mothership.sg/2019/12/news-china-protests-wenlou-hua... The government did not arrest the peaceful protesters. They did arrest the violent ones, but even those were released later. Eventually, the government gave the protesters what they wanted. > People lie when you've got a big stick in your hand to beat them with if you don't like what you hear, eh? The people I talked to are on a VPN, operating on western websites, talking to me in private. The Chinese government is not monitoring those conversations. Having lived in the west for so long, I also studied China for quite a while. The more I study, the more I realize that the western view of CCP is... not exactly wrong, but very very problematic.

msla 6y ago

> Furthermore, 'Liking China but opposing CCP' is, in actuality, a statement that doesn't make much sense once you understand how the CCP - Chinese people relationship actually works: https://twitter.com/Bkerrychina/status/1253635970236375040 https://twitter.com/Bkerrychina/status/1253635970236375040 Taiwan and the Republic of China debunks this.

FooBarWidget 6y ago
What sort of debunking are you referring to? Maybe you're talking about how Taiwan does not like the CCP. Correct. So let me be clear: when I said "Chinese people" I'm referring to mainlanders.
- msla 6y ago
  > So let me be clear: when I said "Chinese people" I'm referring to mainlanders. You claim that all mainlanders like the CCP, which is a spurious claim given not only how impossible it is to generalize over such a huge group (including people the CCP is actively persecuting, such as Uyghurs!) but also because the CCP actively punishes people who speak against it. Even aside from that, your conflation of "Chinese" and "mainlanders" and further conflation of "Chinese" and "mainlanders who like the CCP" is precisely what I'm talking about. It's improper, it's politically biased, and it destroys the conversation we're supposedly trying to have here.
  - FooBarWidget 6y ago
    Not all. High level of support. There are those who are against. But overall, support is strong. > but also because the CCP actively punishes people who speak against it. See my other thread regarding this topic.