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C'mon: Hong Kong, persecution of Uighurs and Falun Gong and political prisoners and artists and journalists and anyone who talks about Taiwan or the Tienanmen

C'mon: Hong Kong, persecution of Uighurs and Falun Gong and political prisoners and artists and journalists and anyone who talks about Taiwan or the Tienanmen Square Massacre, IP theft, cyber attacks, political aggression in the South China Sea ("Nine-Dash Line"), not to mention trying to expend their censorship apparatus internationally! I like China but the CCP is a problem.

mst 7y ago
Meanwhile, anti-anti-China people are ... often well meaning but a bit daft. One managed to mishear "Uighur Muslims" (yes, there are anti-anti-China people who don't know who they are, and yes, they misheard "Uighur" as a word starting with "N") and it took me quite some annoyance to get that straightened out and everybody on the "Chinese people pretty cool, Xi really not so much" page.
- msla 7y ago
  > it took me quite some annoyance to get that straightened out and everybody on the "Chinese people pretty cool, Xi really not so much" page. This shouldn't be hard to get across, except the CCP is very interested in ensuring people don't distinguish between the government of the People's Republic of China and Chinese people as a whole. Which leads to criticism of the CCP/PRC being seen as racist, which adds lots of heat to the discussion but absolutely no light. Precisely what the CCP would want, were it to attempt to influence online discussions. But I'm sure the CCP doesn't try to influence online discussions.... right?
  - FooBarWidget 7y ago
    Oh man, you really overestimate the CCP's media competence. Take a look at the state media and propaganda in China. It's all very traditional, very straightforward, mostly fact based (even if cherry-picked). Even the infamous 50 cents army is pretty stupid, and not what you think it is: https://www.quora.com/Does-the-50-cent-army-really-exist-and-if-so-whats-the-point-It-seems-like-its-only-worsened-Chinas-international-image/answer/Truever-Zhang https://www.quora.com/Does-the-50-cent-army-really-exist-and... CCP influencing online discussions in the west? Hahahaha! As someone who's neutral (not even supportive) about the CCP, I can only hope that they become that competent within a decade. Those idiots still have no idea how sophisticated communication with western audiences needs to be. In the mean time, western media walks all over them, even with stories that are easily debunked.
    - seppin 7y ago
      > As someone who's neutral (not even supportive) about the CCP, I can only hope that they become that competent within a decade. You don't sound very neutral.
      - FooBarWidget 7y ago
        I am not surprised that you think that. A lot of western discourse has gone so far off to the anti China direction that anything neutral people say can come over as pro CCP. I am not. I have plenty of critique against them. But the sentiment in HN is already so anti China that there is no need for me to voice that critique. I am not even saying "CCP good". I am saying "CCP not as bad as you think" and "there are alternative perspectives that are just as valid". As for my hope that they become competent in media: it is to counter all the obvious lies. I mean... Wuhan lab virus? Really? And people willingly believe these stories all over the world?
        seppin 7y ago
        You just keep saying "everyone is anti-China" over and over without clarifying what you actually mean. Your insistence on not making a distinction between the CCP and the Chinese people makes it hard to engage in any discussion, as criticism of one is taken as criticism of the other. I have a strong feeling the CCP is depending on this mentality from it's people, playing up ethnonationalism and xenophobia to distract from any criticism towards them. You said clearly you wish the CCP had better propaganda and communication, why? That would make them stronger, yet you claim to not be in favor of them. Do you care to clarify?
        FooBarWidget 7y ago
        You raise an interesting point when you ask me to explain why I think HN is anti-China. It was so self-evident to me, but apparently you don't experience it as such. Maybe the HN crowd is not so much anti-China, but rather just misinformed, by virtue of living in the western media bubble which paints a one-sided picture of China. I gave the Wuhan lab virus theory as an example. Actually the entire COVID-19 reporting is a big example, and is what triggered me to speak up in the first place. I was in China in January, I personally witnessed the news, lockdown progression, etc. And yet when I look at western reporting, there is so much misinformation, so much unjustified blame for things that are obviously not true. For example, I see so many comments on HN saying China covered up for months (they didn't -- downplayed jan 1 to jan 20 at most), saying that China deliberately allowed international flights from Wuhan after the lockdown in order to infect the world (they didn't), and more. I see so many extreme, obviously untrue information, that I see this as anti-China. And Chinese media is very weak against such unsubstantiated attacks. How can I sit back, see all the lies and bullying, and not hope that Chinese media gets their act together? This has got nothing to do with whether I support the CCP in the end -- just because CCP has problems, and that there are legit criticisms against CCP, doesn't mean we should accept lies against CCP, nor does it mean that they shouldn't be able to defend themselves against lies.
FooBarWidget 7y ago
You list a bunch of terms, but pretty much all of those things have a different side to the story. I'll start with one thing, because addressing them all takes too long. You think the Hong Kong rioters are fighting for freedom? Take a look at how they attack innocent women and elderly that simply disagree with them: https://twitter.com/Mondayfreemary/status/1258440378367324160 https://twitter.com/Mondayfreemary/status/125844037836732416... Western media romanticizes the whole thing by not reporting anything about the dark side of the movement, and by cutting footage to make the rioters look like heroes: https://twitter.com/DanielDumbrill/status/1258357602850754560 https://twitter.com/DanielDumbrill/status/125835760285075456... Here's the real story, I've written a summary just earlier today: https://twitter.com/honglilai/status/1258294860618108928 https://twitter.com/honglilai/status/1258294860618108928 This isn't just about one or two people who are criminals. The rioting, the violence, the hate for mainlanders (hate for PEOPLE, not just CCP) has completely taken over the movement. Heck, I don't even dare going to Hong Kong anymore -- as someone with a mainland background, I fear for my life. Furthermore, 'Liking China but opposing CCP' is, in actuality, a statement that doesn't make much sense once you understand how the CCP - Chinese people relationship actually works: https://twitter.com/Bkerrychina/status/1253635970236375040 https://twitter.com/Bkerrychina/status/1253635970236375040 The CCP enjoys a pretty high level of support in China. Real support. Even many people who use VPN to use Twitter say they support the CCP. This support has grown tremendously in the past decade, in no small part thanks to all the demonization bullshit that western media tries to pull on China. Many Chinese read western media, think 'wtf is this overblown nonsense?', and end up supporting CCP more, even if they were previously neutral or slightly anti. My point: by listing all those terms, you are painting a one-dimensional, stereotypical, overblown and distorted view of China. If you really want to help Chinese people, you gotta first understand where they come from. This begins with gaining an accurate image of what China is, not the media stereotype.
- carapace 7y ago
  > You list a bunch of terms as if in a 'gotcha' manner, but pretty much all of those things have a different side to the story. I'll start with one thing, because addressing them all takes too long. What is the "different side to the story" of involuntary organ harvesting of political and religious prisoners? > You think the Hong Kong rioters are fighting for freedom? Yes. > Take a look at how they attack innocent women and elderly that simply disagree with them: https://twitter.com/Mondayfreemary/status/125844037836732416.. https://twitter.com/Mondayfreemary/status/125844037836732416.... I looked but the video wouldn't play. If that's what happened then that's also bad. Anyway, I don't get my news from Twitter. I also don't get my news from mainstream Western new media because they are biased (I agree with you about that.) > Furthermore, 'Liking China but opposing CCP' is, in actuality, a statement that doesn't make much sense once you understand how the CCP - Chinese people relationship actually works: https://twitter.com/Bkerrychina/status/1253635970236375040 https://twitter.com/Bkerrychina/status/1253635970236375040 I'll read that article, FWIW. Cheers. But I can tell you what I mean when I say that. Chinese culture is a part of my culture. I grew up in San Francisco. There has always been a Chinese cultural influence in my life. The first Chinese New Years Parade was held here in 1851 (predating the communist party by ~70-80 years, eh?) Also, there are millions of Chinese that do not live in China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overseas_Chinese https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overseas_Chinese So China as a people and a culture is much much older and larger than the communists. That is the China that lives in my affections. I want to add that Lao Tzu's "Tao Te Ching" is the greatest book of wisdom in the world (in my opinion.) CCP != China > The CCP enjoys a pretty high level of support in China. Real support. Even many people who use VPN to use Twitter say they support the CCP. This support has grown tremendously in the past decade, in no small part thanks to all the demonization bullshit that western media tries to pull on China. Many Chinese read western media, think 'wtf is this overblown nonsense?', and end up supporting CCP more, even if they were previously neutral or slightly anti. You cannot possibly know that with any certainty in a regime that punishes criticism! You just can't. People lie when you've got a big stick in your hand to beat them with if you don't like what you hear, eh? > My point: by listing all those terms, you are painting a one-dimensional, stereotypical, overblown and distorted view of China. "...of the CCP" you mean. I don't blame Chinese people for the crimes of the CCP. > If you really want to help Chinese people, you gotta first understand where they come from. A billion and a half people don't need any help from me. > This begins with gaining an accurate image of what China is, not the media stereotype. I don't know what to tell you. Like I said, I don't follow the media. FWIW, I straight up studied China for awhile until I realized how vast it was and how silly and arrogant I was to think that I could possibly encompass it. Now all I want is for the CCP to stop trying to edit history, stop locking people in mass concentration camps, stop stealing their organs, and stop fucking with the South China Sea. Those seem simple enough for even me to opine on, in all my ignorance.

mst 7y ago

Meanwhile, anti-anti-China people are ... often well meaning but a bit daft. One managed to mishear "Uighur Muslims" (yes, there are anti-anti-China people who don't know who they are, and yes, they misheard "Uighur" as a word starting with "N") and it took me quite some annoyance to get that straightened out and everybody on the "Chinese people pretty cool, Xi really not so much" page.

msla 7y ago
> it took me quite some annoyance to get that straightened out and everybody on the "Chinese people pretty cool, Xi really not so much" page. This shouldn't be hard to get across, except the CCP is very interested in ensuring people don't distinguish between the government of the People's Republic of China and Chinese people as a whole. Which leads to criticism of the CCP/PRC being seen as racist, which adds lots of heat to the discussion but absolutely no light. Precisely what the CCP would want, were it to attempt to influence online discussions. But I'm sure the CCP doesn't try to influence online discussions.... right?
- FooBarWidget 7y ago
  Oh man, you really overestimate the CCP's media competence. Take a look at the state media and propaganda in China. It's all very traditional, very straightforward, mostly fact based (even if cherry-picked). Even the infamous 50 cents army is pretty stupid, and not what you think it is: https://www.quora.com/Does-the-50-cent-army-really-exist-and-if-so-whats-the-point-It-seems-like-its-only-worsened-Chinas-international-image/answer/Truever-Zhang https://www.quora.com/Does-the-50-cent-army-really-exist-and... CCP influencing online discussions in the west? Hahahaha! As someone who's neutral (not even supportive) about the CCP, I can only hope that they become that competent within a decade. Those idiots still have no idea how sophisticated communication with western audiences needs to be. In the mean time, western media walks all over them, even with stories that are easily debunked.
  - seppin 7y ago
    > As someone who's neutral (not even supportive) about the CCP, I can only hope that they become that competent within a decade. You don't sound very neutral.
    - FooBarWidget 7y ago
      I am not surprised that you think that. A lot of western discourse has gone so far off to the anti China direction that anything neutral people say can come over as pro CCP. I am not. I have plenty of critique against them. But the sentiment in HN is already so anti China that there is no need for me to voice that critique. I am not even saying "CCP good". I am saying "CCP not as bad as you think" and "there are alternative perspectives that are just as valid". As for my hope that they become competent in media: it is to counter all the obvious lies. I mean... Wuhan lab virus? Really? And people willingly believe these stories all over the world?
      - seppin 7y ago
        You just keep saying "everyone is anti-China" over and over without clarifying what you actually mean. Your insistence on not making a distinction between the CCP and the Chinese people makes it hard to engage in any discussion, as criticism of one is taken as criticism of the other. I have a strong feeling the CCP is depending on this mentality from it's people, playing up ethnonationalism and xenophobia to distract from any criticism towards them. You said clearly you wish the CCP had better propaganda and communication, why? That would make them stronger, yet you claim to not be in favor of them. Do you care to clarify?
        FooBarWidget 7y ago
        You raise an interesting point when you ask me to explain why I think HN is anti-China. It was so self-evident to me, but apparently you don't experience it as such. Maybe the HN crowd is not so much anti-China, but rather just misinformed, by virtue of living in the western media bubble which paints a one-sided picture of China. I gave the Wuhan lab virus theory as an example. Actually the entire COVID-19 reporting is a big example, and is what triggered me to speak up in the first place. I was in China in January, I personally witnessed the news, lockdown progression, etc. And yet when I look at western reporting, there is so much misinformation, so much unjustified blame for things that are obviously not true. For example, I see so many comments on HN saying China covered up for months (they didn't -- downplayed jan 1 to jan 20 at most), saying that China deliberately allowed international flights from Wuhan after the lockdown in order to infect the world (they didn't), and more. I see so many extreme, obviously untrue information, that I see this as anti-China. And Chinese media is very weak against such unsubstantiated attacks. How can I sit back, see all the lies and bullying, and not hope that Chinese media gets their act together? This has got nothing to do with whether I support the CCP in the end -- just because CCP has problems, and that there are legit criticisms against CCP, doesn't mean we should accept lies against CCP, nor does it mean that they shouldn't be able to defend themselves against lies.

FooBarWidget 7y ago

You list a bunch of terms, but pretty much all of those things have a different side to the story. I'll start with one thing, because addressing them all takes too long. You think the Hong Kong rioters are fighting for freedom? Take a look at how they attack innocent women and elderly that simply disagree with them: https://twitter.com/Mondayfreemary/status/1258440378367324160 https://twitter.com/Mondayfreemary/status/125844037836732416... Western media romanticizes the whole thing by not reporting anything about the dark side of the movement, and by cutting footage to make the rioters look like heroes: https://twitter.com/DanielDumbrill/status/1258357602850754560 https://twitter.com/DanielDumbrill/status/125835760285075456... Here's the real story, I've written a summary just earlier today: https://twitter.com/honglilai/status/1258294860618108928 https://twitter.com/honglilai/status/1258294860618108928 This isn't just about one or two people who are criminals. The rioting, the violence, the hate for mainlanders (hate for PEOPLE, not just CCP) has completely taken over the movement. Heck, I don't even dare going to Hong Kong anymore -- as someone with a mainland background, I fear for my life. Furthermore, 'Liking China but opposing CCP' is, in actuality, a statement that doesn't make much sense once you understand how the CCP - Chinese people relationship actually works: https://twitter.com/Bkerrychina/status/1253635970236375040 https://twitter.com/Bkerrychina/status/1253635970236375040 The CCP enjoys a pretty high level of support in China. Real support. Even many people who use VPN to use Twitter say they support the CCP. This support has grown tremendously in the past decade, in no small part thanks to all the demonization bullshit that western media tries to pull on China. Many Chinese read western media, think 'wtf is this overblown nonsense?', and end up supporting CCP more, even if they were previously neutral or slightly anti. My point: by listing all those terms, you are painting a one-dimensional, stereotypical, overblown and distorted view of China. If you really want to help Chinese people, you gotta first understand where they come from. This begins with gaining an accurate image of what China is, not the media stereotype.

carapace 7y ago
> You list a bunch of terms as if in a 'gotcha' manner, but pretty much all of those things have a different side to the story. I'll start with one thing, because addressing them all takes too long. What is the "different side to the story" of involuntary organ harvesting of political and religious prisoners? > You think the Hong Kong rioters are fighting for freedom? Yes. > Take a look at how they attack innocent women and elderly that simply disagree with them: https://twitter.com/Mondayfreemary/status/125844037836732416.. https://twitter.com/Mondayfreemary/status/125844037836732416.... I looked but the video wouldn't play. If that's what happened then that's also bad. Anyway, I don't get my news from Twitter. I also don't get my news from mainstream Western new media because they are biased (I agree with you about that.) > Furthermore, 'Liking China but opposing CCP' is, in actuality, a statement that doesn't make much sense once you understand how the CCP - Chinese people relationship actually works: https://twitter.com/Bkerrychina/status/1253635970236375040 https://twitter.com/Bkerrychina/status/1253635970236375040 I'll read that article, FWIW. Cheers. But I can tell you what I mean when I say that. Chinese culture is a part of my culture. I grew up in San Francisco. There has always been a Chinese cultural influence in my life. The first Chinese New Years Parade was held here in 1851 (predating the communist party by ~70-80 years, eh?) Also, there are millions of Chinese that do not live in China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overseas_Chinese https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overseas_Chinese So China as a people and a culture is much much older and larger than the communists. That is the China that lives in my affections. I want to add that Lao Tzu's "Tao Te Ching" is the greatest book of wisdom in the world (in my opinion.) CCP != China > The CCP enjoys a pretty high level of support in China. Real support. Even many people who use VPN to use Twitter say they support the CCP. This support has grown tremendously in the past decade, in no small part thanks to all the demonization bullshit that western media tries to pull on China. Many Chinese read western media, think 'wtf is this overblown nonsense?', and end up supporting CCP more, even if they were previously neutral or slightly anti. You cannot possibly know that with any certainty in a regime that punishes criticism! You just can't. People lie when you've got a big stick in your hand to beat them with if you don't like what you hear, eh? > My point: by listing all those terms, you are painting a one-dimensional, stereotypical, overblown and distorted view of China. "...of the CCP" you mean. I don't blame Chinese people for the crimes of the CCP. > If you really want to help Chinese people, you gotta first understand where they come from. A billion and a half people don't need any help from me. > This begins with gaining an accurate image of what China is, not the media stereotype. I don't know what to tell you. Like I said, I don't follow the media. FWIW, I straight up studied China for awhile until I realized how vast it was and how silly and arrogant I was to think that I could possibly encompass it. Now all I want is for the CCP to stop trying to edit history, stop locking people in mass concentration camps, stop stealing their organs, and stop fucking with the South China Sea. Those seem simple enough for even me to opine on, in all my ignorance.