5 ms·

I'm not saying that rent won't go up, but depending on the UBI scheme it probably won't go up 1:1. Rent goes up because there are more people looking for a lim

I'm not saying that rent won't go up, but depending on the UBI scheme it probably won't go up 1:1. Rent goes up because there are more people looking for a limited resource in urban areas: if you want to work in the city you must live near the city. A UBI that isn't tied to location makes it easier for people to live elsewhere, which reduces demand.

toomuchtodo 6y ago
On a smaller scale, we should see where older folks on Social Security live. They have a form of UBI and also usually don’t or can’t work.
- luckylion 6y ago
  Or we could look at Germany. Our welfare system is largely unconditional. You're asked to find a job to pull your own weight, but you're not pushed too hard. You'll get an apartment, TV, utilities, health insurance and a few hundred euros a month for food & what ever you want to spend it on. If we did cut out the theoretical work-requirement and possibly stopped paying the rent and instead paid out money (but then quite a few people would fail to pay rent and we'd need another social program to cover them), this would be UBI. So far, I haven't seen the explosion in creativity, entrepreneurship, volunteering etc that's usually promised. On the other hand, we're up there fighting about the top position in OECD countries for total tax rate.
  - ChuckNorris89 6y ago
    >So far, I haven't seen the explosion in creativity, entrepreneurship, volunteering etc that's usually promised. That's because most people don't have the ambition and discipline of Elon Musk or Jeff Bezos and if given the chance would rather bum around their whole life instead of work. I see the same thing in Austria and so do my friends living in other wealthy European countries with strong social nets. Most people, if given easy access to welfare, would rather lower their standard of living to fit in that small sum of money and not do anything all day rather than use their free time to hustle, learn a new skill or build a business that will permit them a higher standard of living later on.
    - qmmmur 6y ago
      Shocking. People would rather enjoy life not working as hard as hustling (code for taking big risk without much payoff) to get more money to buy more stuff.
      - lonelappde 6y ago
        Problem is, we'll never cure cancer if no one is motivated to solve hard problems.
        qmmmur 6y ago
        I'm not sure what your experience is but research is vastly different to commercial enterprise and there is a massive motivational difference between curing cancer and making CRUD apps to get your 'side hustle' on. In my experience in highly funded research groups that run outside out of traditional management (translation annoying and wasteful tertiary education administration) researchers that make an impact get on just fine and produce excellent results on a liveable wage and being given the space to do their jobs. In my mind, the highly masculine and overly aggressive capitalist mindset that competition == results is either untrue or false and discounts a wide range of motivations, personalities and skill sets which do things of interest or worth in intellectual jobs.
    - valesco 6y ago
      But why would you get into unpleasant endeavors if they are not gratifying and you already have everything you need to live a basic life? This is ideology.
  - nicbou 6y ago
    > Our welfare system is largely unconditional. ALG II is pretty far from unconditional. You only get it after you burn through all your savings, and it forces you to look for work. TV costs 17€ a month per household even if you don't have a TV. Health insurance is pretty far from free, though it matches your income. Don't get me wrong, it's generally a pretty good system, but it's not unconditional.
    - luckylion 6y ago
      > it forces you to look for work Yes, in a theoretic sense. Not practically, it does not run out and you have to be pretty combative and purposefully i-wont-work to be sanctioned. > TV costs 17€ a month per household even if you don't have a TV Which is waived for anyone on social benefits. > Health insurance is pretty far from free It is for anyone on social benefits, paid by taxing those that work.
      - nicbou 6y ago
        Again, those social benefits only kick in after you have burned through your life savings, including your retirement savings. If you are on ALG II, you don't have so much left. You are also expected to report to the job center, and act on the help they provide you. It's not just "stop working, get free things". If you are not a citizen, it's also going to ensure your visa doesn't get renewed. The government had to make an exception this time for COVID-19.
        luckylion 6y ago
        Yes, as I wrote, you're expected to find a job, but it's not like they'll toss you a broom stick and tell you to start sweeping. As for savings: true, but less relevant. With a high net wealth you're already free to do whatever you like. 41% of Germans have less than $10.000 in personal wealth, which will be pretty much the so called Schonvermögen (which you do not need to touch to be eligible for Hartz-4; retirement savings are not taken into account for this, and only applied to private retirement savings, while the super majority relies on the public retirement system in Germany). So yeah, it's not "stop working, get free things", but it's pretty close to it. Close enough that we should see all the huge benefits that are promised by UBI proponents. But we don't. > If you are not a citizen, it's also going to ensure your visa doesn't get renewed. That's not accurate. About 2 million non-citizens are receiving Hartz-4 benefits, the trend is pointing upwards, it does not affect their legal status.
- jacobr1 6y ago
  But also have interesting factors of health concerns (more likely to need nursing care, or need a home without stairs) and on the other side, many are more likely to have large savings. There are other factors like some wanting to live near children/grandchildren who are more likely to live in a high-cost area due to jobs. I'm not sure if all the balances out, but those on social security have plenty of different concerns than working-age folks.
  - toomuchtodo 6y ago
    > But also have interesting factors of health concerns (more likely to need nursing care, or need a home without stairs) and on the other side, many are more likely to have large savings. US statistics: https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/05/04/baby-boomers-retirement/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/05/04/baby-boom... (Millions of baby boomers are getting caught in the country’s broken retirement system) https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/05/these-people-are-on-the-verge-of-retiring-and-they-have-nothing-saved.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/05/these-people-are-on-the-verg... (48 percent of American households over the age of 55 still have no retirement savings) https://www.cbpp.org/research/social-security/social-security-lifts-more-americans-above-poverty-than-any-other-program https://www.cbpp.org/research/social-security/social-securit... (Although most of those whom Social Security keeps out of poverty are elderly [14.8 million], 6.9 million are under age 65, including 1.2 million children) For our purposes, it's important that you scope to only those who are collecting only Social Security, and have no other retirement savings to closely model your average citizen collecting a potential UBI.

toomuchtodo 6y ago

On a smaller scale, we should see where older folks on Social Security live. They have a form of UBI and also usually don’t or can’t work.

luckylion 6y ago
Or we could look at Germany. Our welfare system is largely unconditional. You're asked to find a job to pull your own weight, but you're not pushed too hard. You'll get an apartment, TV, utilities, health insurance and a few hundred euros a month for food & what ever you want to spend it on. If we did cut out the theoretical work-requirement and possibly stopped paying the rent and instead paid out money (but then quite a few people would fail to pay rent and we'd need another social program to cover them), this would be UBI. So far, I haven't seen the explosion in creativity, entrepreneurship, volunteering etc that's usually promised. On the other hand, we're up there fighting about the top position in OECD countries for total tax rate.
- ChuckNorris89 6y ago
  >So far, I haven't seen the explosion in creativity, entrepreneurship, volunteering etc that's usually promised. That's because most people don't have the ambition and discipline of Elon Musk or Jeff Bezos and if given the chance would rather bum around their whole life instead of work. I see the same thing in Austria and so do my friends living in other wealthy European countries with strong social nets. Most people, if given easy access to welfare, would rather lower their standard of living to fit in that small sum of money and not do anything all day rather than use their free time to hustle, learn a new skill or build a business that will permit them a higher standard of living later on.
  - qmmmur 6y ago
    Shocking. People would rather enjoy life not working as hard as hustling (code for taking big risk without much payoff) to get more money to buy more stuff.
    - lonelappde 6y ago
      Problem is, we'll never cure cancer if no one is motivated to solve hard problems.
      - qmmmur 6y ago
        I'm not sure what your experience is but research is vastly different to commercial enterprise and there is a massive motivational difference between curing cancer and making CRUD apps to get your 'side hustle' on. In my experience in highly funded research groups that run outside out of traditional management (translation annoying and wasteful tertiary education administration) researchers that make an impact get on just fine and produce excellent results on a liveable wage and being given the space to do their jobs. In my mind, the highly masculine and overly aggressive capitalist mindset that competition == results is either untrue or false and discounts a wide range of motivations, personalities and skill sets which do things of interest or worth in intellectual jobs.
  - valesco 6y ago
    But why would you get into unpleasant endeavors if they are not gratifying and you already have everything you need to live a basic life? This is ideology.
- nicbou 6y ago
  > Our welfare system is largely unconditional. ALG II is pretty far from unconditional. You only get it after you burn through all your savings, and it forces you to look for work. TV costs 17€ a month per household even if you don't have a TV. Health insurance is pretty far from free, though it matches your income. Don't get me wrong, it's generally a pretty good system, but it's not unconditional.
  - luckylion 6y ago
    > it forces you to look for work Yes, in a theoretic sense. Not practically, it does not run out and you have to be pretty combative and purposefully i-wont-work to be sanctioned. > TV costs 17€ a month per household even if you don't have a TV Which is waived for anyone on social benefits. > Health insurance is pretty far from free It is for anyone on social benefits, paid by taxing those that work.
    - nicbou 6y ago
      Again, those social benefits only kick in after you have burned through your life savings, including your retirement savings. If you are on ALG II, you don't have so much left. You are also expected to report to the job center, and act on the help they provide you. It's not just "stop working, get free things". If you are not a citizen, it's also going to ensure your visa doesn't get renewed. The government had to make an exception this time for COVID-19.
      - luckylion 6y ago
        Yes, as I wrote, you're expected to find a job, but it's not like they'll toss you a broom stick and tell you to start sweeping. As for savings: true, but less relevant. With a high net wealth you're already free to do whatever you like. 41% of Germans have less than $10.000 in personal wealth, which will be pretty much the so called Schonvermögen (which you do not need to touch to be eligible for Hartz-4; retirement savings are not taken into account for this, and only applied to private retirement savings, while the super majority relies on the public retirement system in Germany). So yeah, it's not "stop working, get free things", but it's pretty close to it. Close enough that we should see all the huge benefits that are promised by UBI proponents. But we don't. > If you are not a citizen, it's also going to ensure your visa doesn't get renewed. That's not accurate. About 2 million non-citizens are receiving Hartz-4 benefits, the trend is pointing upwards, it does not affect their legal status.
jacobr1 6y ago
But also have interesting factors of health concerns (more likely to need nursing care, or need a home without stairs) and on the other side, many are more likely to have large savings. There are other factors like some wanting to live near children/grandchildren who are more likely to live in a high-cost area due to jobs. I'm not sure if all the balances out, but those on social security have plenty of different concerns than working-age folks.
- toomuchtodo 6y ago
  > But also have interesting factors of health concerns (more likely to need nursing care, or need a home without stairs) and on the other side, many are more likely to have large savings. US statistics: https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/05/04/baby-boomers-retirement/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/05/04/baby-boom... (Millions of baby boomers are getting caught in the country’s broken retirement system) https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/05/these-people-are-on-the-verge-of-retiring-and-they-have-nothing-saved.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/05/these-people-are-on-the-verg... (48 percent of American households over the age of 55 still have no retirement savings) https://www.cbpp.org/research/social-security/social-security-lifts-more-americans-above-poverty-than-any-other-program https://www.cbpp.org/research/social-security/social-securit... (Although most of those whom Social Security keeps out of poverty are elderly [14.8 million], 6.9 million are under age 65, including 1.2 million children) For our purposes, it's important that you scope to only those who are collecting only Social Security, and have no other retirement savings to closely model your average citizen collecting a potential UBI.