6 ms·

> communication company that has its entire dev team in China citation needed Also, what are you trying to imply by this assertion?

by bgee 6y ago

fossuser 6y ago
"Zoom is based in California’s Silicon Valley, but it owns three companies in China that develop its software. The Citizen Lab said the structure allowed the company to lower its development costs, but added “this arrangement may make Zoom responsive to pressure from Chinese authorities.”" https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/apr/24/uk-government-told-not-to-use-zoom-because-of-china-fears https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/apr/24/uk-governmen... The implication is that China is hostile and leverages their power to censor/collect communication information from companies and their people without checks on this power. They are aggressive in stealing IP from other companies and blocking software they can't control. They have history of wielding their power to pressure organizations to deny or ignore aspects of their history that they dislike (Taiwan, Cultural Revolution) and they pressure companies to hand over PII on people they find to be political threats without due process. This is not a country you want to be a steward of an encryption identity standard.
- bgee 6y ago
  I don't think it's true that Zoom has its "entire dev team in China"; doing some research myself reveals Zoom definitely has engineering operations in the US[0][1]. I'm not disagreeing with you on the implications of having engineering teams in China, I think you would like to put that paragraph in your original post to give some context. [0] Tech job postings in US: https://zoom.wd5.myworkdayjobs.com/Zoom/0/refreshFacet/318c8bb6f553100021d223d9780d30be https://zoom.wd5.myworkdayjobs.com/Zoom/0/refreshFacet/318c8... [1] H1b filing on engineering positions: https://h1bdata.info/index.php?em=Zoom+Video+Communications+Inc&job=&city=&year=2019 https://h1bdata.info/index.php?em=Zoom+Video+Communications+... edit: better formatting and grammar
  - fossuser 6y ago
    Thanks - I edited it to soften the language a bit.
    - wutwutwutwut 6y ago
      Is it called "soften the language" to fix a 100% factual error? Honestly I feel that if you're arguing in one direction or another and haven't checked the facts, maybe it's better not to argue about it?
      - fossuser 6y ago
        The vast majority of the Zoom software development team is based out of companies in China. They do have support people in the US and a handful of non-support engineering which is why I said thanks and immediately updated the comment to say "majority" instead of "entire" since it's more correct. That technicality is less relevant to the main point of the argument.
        damanamathos 6y ago
        They do have a large R&D presence in China. As of January 2020, they had 2,532 full-time employees. Of those, 1,396 were in the US and 1,136 were in international locations. Within the 1,136 is "more than 700" employees in R&D in China.[1] A LinkedIn search for "engineer" working for "Zoom Video Communications" in location "United States" shows up 558 results.[2] Their entire management team is in the US, and of their 17 data centres, only 1 is in China.[3][4] [1] https://www.sec.gov/ix?doc=/Archives/edgar/data/1585521/000158552120000095/zm-20200131.htm https://www.sec.gov/ix?doc=/Archives/edgar/data/1585521/0001... [2] https://www.linkedin.com/search/results/people/?facetCurrentCompany=%5B%222532259%22%5D&facetGeoRegion=%5B%22us%3A0%22%5D&keywords=engineer&origin=FACETED_SEARCH https://www.linkedin.com/search/results/people/?facetCurrent... [3] https://zoom.us/team https://zoom.us/team [4] https://blog.zoom.us/wordpress/2020/05/04/navigating-a-new-chapter-for-zoom/ https://blog.zoom.us/wordpress/2020/05/04/navigating-a-new-c...
        wutwutwutwut 6y ago
- uoaei 6y ago
  > this arrangement may make Zoom responsive to pressure from Chinese authorities "May" is a weasel word that doesn't offend the sensibilities of CCP. In reality, every single company which is incorporated in China must be majority-owned by the Chinese government. This is what makes their economic system "state capitalism" and not "communism". But that also means they have a controlling share and get last word on any executive and administrative decision within the company.
  - SujiYan 6y ago
    That’s not true since 199x
- Gasp0de 6y ago
  Isn't the US actually at least as bad if not worse? Thanks to Edward Snowden we know without speculation that the US "is hostile and leverages their power to censor/collect communication information from companies and their people without checks on this power" (ok, supposedly there is secret judges that secretly check on this power, but that doesn't really do any good does it?). The USA also "pressure companies to hand over PII on people they find to be political threats without due process" (so called "National Security Letters").
  - Baeocystin 6y ago
    Short answer? No. Not even close. Source: have lived in both countries
    - avanti 6y ago
      Have lived in both, I can say they are equal. Just different culture norms you have to learn to navigate around.
  - remarkEon 6y ago
    The difference is that in the US we actually get to find out about these abuses.
  - patmorgan23 6y ago
    People don't get disappeared for actively disagreeing with the government.
    - guug 6y ago
      Usually, but they do get into unfortunate accidents from time to time.
    - mirimir 6y ago
      That's true for US citizens. But not so much otherwise. Edit: Someone disagrees? Consider Guantanamo Bay, third-party renditions, and drone strikes. If China did drone strikes, there'd be a huge outcry.
aaomidi 6y ago
China is a country with even less oversight than the US. For a company that does security that's concerning.
- andoriyu 6y ago
  Not even that. All encrypted traffic in china needs to be decryptable by CCP. Which means if your call in zoom was routed to one of their China servers, then CCP has access to it. That is on top of the fact that Zoom encryption is weak af.
kyrra 6y ago
Another citation: https://investors.zoom.us/static-files/09a01665-5f33-4007-8e90-de02219886aa https://investors.zoom.us/static-files/09a01665-5f33-4007-8e... (warning, PDF) > We also operate research and development centers in China, employing more than 700 employees as of January 31, 2020. You can find more stories from last year talking about that was how Zoom had such a large engineering staff, is that it was cheaper for them to pay for R&D in china than in the US[0]. [0] https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/26/zoom-key-profit-driver-ahead-of-ipo-engineers-in-china.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/26/zoom-key-profit-driver-ahead...
- bgee 6y ago
  The emphasis is on entirety, please see my other reply.
umeshunni 6y ago
> Also, what are you trying to imply by this assertion? It's just casual nativism/racism - acceptable on HN as long as it's about China.
- ethbro 6y ago
  It's not nativism or racism to have security concerns about a country with a non-existent commitment to an independent judiciary. If China wants people to think of it as a country where laws matter, then they can start acting like laws matter. https://worldjusticeproject.org/sites/default/files/documents/WJP-ROLI-2020-Online_0.pdf https://worldjusticeproject.org/sites/default/files/document... (And before we get whataboutism concerning {insert other country's wiretapping laws}, wiretapping through an independent judiciary is fundamentally different than via rubber stamp)
- cmelbye 6y ago
  "China" isn't a race, it's a multi-ethnic state with laws that heavily restrict communication. It's relevant to bring up in a thread about building encrypted communication technology.
mrtweetyhack 6y ago
China is not to be trusted, Zoom and now Keybase is not to be trusted

> communication company that has its entire dev team in China citation needed Also, what are you trying to imply by this assertion?

by bgee 6y ago

> communication company that has its entire dev team in China citation needed Also, what are you trying to imply by this assertion?

fossuser 6y ago

"Zoom is based in California’s Silicon Valley, but it owns three companies in China that develop its software. The Citizen Lab said the structure allowed the company to lower its development costs, but added “this arrangement may make Zoom responsive to pressure from Chinese authorities.”" https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/apr/24/uk-government-told-not-to-use-zoom-because-of-china-fears https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/apr/24/uk-governmen... The implication is that China is hostile and leverages their power to censor/collect communication information from companies and their people without checks on this power. They are aggressive in stealing IP from other companies and blocking software they can't control. They have history of wielding their power to pressure organizations to deny or ignore aspects of their history that they dislike (Taiwan, Cultural Revolution) and they pressure companies to hand over PII on people they find to be political threats without due process. This is not a country you want to be a steward of an encryption identity standard.

bgee 6y ago
I don't think it's true that Zoom has its "entire dev team in China"; doing some research myself reveals Zoom definitely has engineering operations in the US[0][1]. I'm not disagreeing with you on the implications of having engineering teams in China, I think you would like to put that paragraph in your original post to give some context. [0] Tech job postings in US: https://zoom.wd5.myworkdayjobs.com/Zoom/0/refreshFacet/318c8bb6f553100021d223d9780d30be https://zoom.wd5.myworkdayjobs.com/Zoom/0/refreshFacet/318c8... [1] H1b filing on engineering positions: https://h1bdata.info/index.php?em=Zoom+Video+Communications+Inc&job=&city=&year=2019 https://h1bdata.info/index.php?em=Zoom+Video+Communications+... edit: better formatting and grammar
- fossuser 6y ago
  Thanks - I edited it to soften the language a bit.
  - wutwutwutwut 6y ago
    Is it called "soften the language" to fix a 100% factual error? Honestly I feel that if you're arguing in one direction or another and haven't checked the facts, maybe it's better not to argue about it?
    - fossuser 6y ago
      The vast majority of the Zoom software development team is based out of companies in China. They do have support people in the US and a handful of non-support engineering which is why I said thanks and immediately updated the comment to say "majority" instead of "entire" since it's more correct. That technicality is less relevant to the main point of the argument.
      - damanamathos 6y ago
        They do have a large R&D presence in China. As of January 2020, they had 2,532 full-time employees. Of those, 1,396 were in the US and 1,136 were in international locations. Within the 1,136 is "more than 700" employees in R&D in China.[1] A LinkedIn search for "engineer" working for "Zoom Video Communications" in location "United States" shows up 558 results.[2] Their entire management team is in the US, and of their 17 data centres, only 1 is in China.[3][4] [1] https://www.sec.gov/ix?doc=/Archives/edgar/data/1585521/000158552120000095/zm-20200131.htm https://www.sec.gov/ix?doc=/Archives/edgar/data/1585521/0001... [2] https://www.linkedin.com/search/results/people/?facetCurrentCompany=%5B%222532259%22%5D&facetGeoRegion=%5B%22us%3A0%22%5D&keywords=engineer&origin=FACETED_SEARCH https://www.linkedin.com/search/results/people/?facetCurrent... [3] https://zoom.us/team https://zoom.us/team [4] https://blog.zoom.us/wordpress/2020/05/04/navigating-a-new-chapter-for-zoom/ https://blog.zoom.us/wordpress/2020/05/04/navigating-a-new-c...
      - wutwutwutwut 6y ago
uoaei 6y ago
> this arrangement may make Zoom responsive to pressure from Chinese authorities "May" is a weasel word that doesn't offend the sensibilities of CCP. In reality, every single company which is incorporated in China must be majority-owned by the Chinese government. This is what makes their economic system "state capitalism" and not "communism". But that also means they have a controlling share and get last word on any executive and administrative decision within the company.
- SujiYan 6y ago
  That’s not true since 199x
Gasp0de 6y ago
Isn't the US actually at least as bad if not worse? Thanks to Edward Snowden we know without speculation that the US "is hostile and leverages their power to censor/collect communication information from companies and their people without checks on this power" (ok, supposedly there is secret judges that secretly check on this power, but that doesn't really do any good does it?). The USA also "pressure companies to hand over PII on people they find to be political threats without due process" (so called "National Security Letters").
- Baeocystin 6y ago
  Short answer? No. Not even close. Source: have lived in both countries
  - avanti 6y ago
    Have lived in both, I can say they are equal. Just different culture norms you have to learn to navigate around.
- remarkEon 6y ago
  The difference is that in the US we actually get to find out about these abuses.
- patmorgan23 6y ago
  People don't get disappeared for actively disagreeing with the government.
  - guug 6y ago
    Usually, but they do get into unfortunate accidents from time to time.
  - mirimir 6y ago
    That's true for US citizens. But not so much otherwise. Edit: Someone disagrees? Consider Guantanamo Bay, third-party renditions, and drone strikes. If China did drone strikes, there'd be a huge outcry.

aaomidi 6y ago

China is a country with even less oversight than the US. For a company that does security that's concerning.

andoriyu 6y ago
Not even that. All encrypted traffic in china needs to be decryptable by CCP. Which means if your call in zoom was routed to one of their China servers, then CCP has access to it. That is on top of the fact that Zoom encryption is weak af.

kyrra 6y ago

Another citation: https://investors.zoom.us/static-files/09a01665-5f33-4007-8e90-de02219886aa https://investors.zoom.us/static-files/09a01665-5f33-4007-8e... (warning, PDF) > We also operate research and development centers in China, employing more than 700 employees as of January 31, 2020. You can find more stories from last year talking about that was how Zoom had such a large engineering staff, is that it was cheaper for them to pay for R&D in china than in the US[0]. [0] https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/26/zoom-key-profit-driver-ahead-of-ipo-engineers-in-china.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/26/zoom-key-profit-driver-ahead...

bgee 6y ago
The emphasis is on entirety, please see my other reply.

umeshunni 6y ago

> Also, what are you trying to imply by this assertion? It's just casual nativism/racism - acceptable on HN as long as it's about China.

ethbro 6y ago
It's not nativism or racism to have security concerns about a country with a non-existent commitment to an independent judiciary. If China wants people to think of it as a country where laws matter, then they can start acting like laws matter. https://worldjusticeproject.org/sites/default/files/documents/WJP-ROLI-2020-Online_0.pdf https://worldjusticeproject.org/sites/default/files/document... (And before we get whataboutism concerning {insert other country's wiretapping laws}, wiretapping through an independent judiciary is fundamentally different than via rubber stamp)
cmelbye 6y ago
"China" isn't a race, it's a multi-ethnic state with laws that heavily restrict communication. It's relevant to bring up in a thread about building encrypted communication technology.

mrtweetyhack 6y ago

China is not to be trusted, Zoom and now Keybase is not to be trusted