4 ms·

$50M and two years later - where are the conclusions? The results? A blog post of what happened? Two years seems like enough time to say we tried some amazing t

$50M and two years later - where are the conclusions? The results? A blog post of what happened? Two years seems like enough time to say we tried some amazing things and this is how it did or did not work.

reportingsjr 6y ago
Two years is nothing when it comes with planning and development in the US, unfortunately. A little anecdote, here in Cincinnati I was peripherally involved with a local nonprofit taking over management of an abandoned bit of city part to build new multi-use trails. It took 20 years for the park board to even listen, then once an agreement was reached it took another /year and a half/ to get the paperwork to the point where they would officially sign it. Just for a group to build trails, with no money needed from the city, no permits, etc. Projects like what sidewalk labs was trying to accomplish frequently take 5-10 years+ to get anywhere. Planning in the US is absolute garbage. It is a big part of the reason SF and other large US cities are so expensive. Luckily there are some groups like YIMBY making headway here.
- gamblor956 6y ago
  local nonprofit taking over management of an abandoned bit of city This is why it took a long time. The city was handing over management over part of itself in perpetuity. That needs to be done with care and deliberation. Moreover, there are liability issues related to third parties making alterations to city lands that could result in ruinous liability to the city if citizens get injured on the altered lands and the city didn't fully inspect the alterations. You also have potential drainage and soil issues to deal with, which need to be reviewed by geologists. And that's not getting into environmental reviews if there are at-risk species dwelling in that park. All of those things take time. Programmers always complain about their customers wanting X in a few weeks when it really takes months. So why are programmers always complaining that it takes engineers, geologists, architects, and city planners months to do their jobs? Unlike programming, the stuff these professionals are doing/reviewing can't just be fixed with a patch.
  - 52-6F-62 6y ago
    Thankfully Waterfront Toronto has been doing those studies and has their own plan for the region! They want to convert a large part of the area into green lands and proper drainage of the Don River to prevent further flooding. I'm not sure if SWL's plan would have worked in conjunction with that work or if they would have overridden it.
  - reportingsjr 6y ago
    >This is why it took a long time. The city was handing over management over part of itself in perpetuity. That needs to be done with care and deliberation. The city has the right at any time to revoke the MOU between the city and this group, so there wasn't really risk there. I understand that care should be taken, but at a certain point you begin having serious inefficiencies. >Moreover, there are liability issues related to third parties making alterations to city lands that could result in ruinous liability to the city if citizens get injured on the altered lands and the city didn't fully inspect the alterations. This is through an IMBA chapter which accepts all liability and responsibility and includes insurance coverage. This is not some new, unique thing that is happening. There are many dozens if not hundreds of these agreements in place in other cities already. >You also have potential drainage and soil issues to deal with, which need to be reviewed by geologists. And that's not getting into environmental reviews if there are at-risk species dwelling in that park. There aren't major structures being put in place, and most of the parks around here have very, very degraded ecosystems except in a few notable, well known locations. >All of those things take time. Programmers always complain about their customers wanting X in a few weeks when it really takes months. >So why are programmers always complaining that it takes engineers, geologists, architects, and city planners months to do their jobs? Unlike programming, the stuff these professionals are doing/reviewing can't just be fixed with a patch. For what its worth I'm an electrical engineer, not a programmer, that deals more with manufacturing. My last job involved electronics for explosive atmospheres that were expected to last 10+ years minimum, so I have a good understanding of not being able to quickly send out fixes with a patch. The process wasn't really transparent, so it really felt like people kind of dragging their feet and being very resistant to change. Something my city is known for (see famous Mark Twain quote about Cincy and the end of the world). I understand very well taking months to do things, but years for something like this is maddening.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- tomjakubowski 6y ago
  I'm so confused by this comment. You're saying there is some city planning problem unique to the United States, but also cities in Canada? Could you help me understand how some friction to building in Cincinatti is relevant to Toronto or San Francisco, when different laws and political bodies apply to all?
  - reportingsjr 6y ago
    Sorry, in my mind I combine the US and Canada since much of the planning coverage is in the same news outlets (e.g. streetsblog). For what its worth Canada seems to have many of the same planning and development issues the US has struggled with for the past decades.
- derefr 6y ago
  > It took 20 years for the park board to even listen On that sort of timescale, that's less down to "things move slowly" and more down to "you can't get anything done in the wrong political climate, so you have to wait until appointed officials die and/or an entire generational shift in your municipality produces a sea-change of political views."
  - reportingsjr 6y ago
    Which is almost precisely what happened. Cincinnati is notorious for this sort of thing.
    - derefr 6y ago
      Sure, but my point was that that's not just "moving slowly", it's Brownian motion: there's no guarantee political winds will ever shift favorably in your direction at all. They might drift in the opposite direction for hundreds of years. Community "evaporative cooling" in a city of decreasing population might just see whatever political currents are there get concentrated over time, rather than diminished. So, basically, any municipal political plan that involves "waiting the problem out" as a strategy, should never actually be chosen/pursued, because if time has any associated overhead costs, then the indefinite amount of time required will cause the overall strategy to have predictably negative ROI.

reportingsjr 6y ago

Two years is nothing when it comes with planning and development in the US, unfortunately. A little anecdote, here in Cincinnati I was peripherally involved with a local nonprofit taking over management of an abandoned bit of city part to build new multi-use trails. It took 20 years for the park board to even listen, then once an agreement was reached it took another /year and a half/ to get the paperwork to the point where they would officially sign it. Just for a group to build trails, with no money needed from the city, no permits, etc. Projects like what sidewalk labs was trying to accomplish frequently take 5-10 years+ to get anywhere. Planning in the US is absolute garbage. It is a big part of the reason SF and other large US cities are so expensive. Luckily there are some groups like YIMBY making headway here.

gamblor956 6y ago
local nonprofit taking over management of an abandoned bit of city This is why it took a long time. The city was handing over management over part of itself in perpetuity. That needs to be done with care and deliberation. Moreover, there are liability issues related to third parties making alterations to city lands that could result in ruinous liability to the city if citizens get injured on the altered lands and the city didn't fully inspect the alterations. You also have potential drainage and soil issues to deal with, which need to be reviewed by geologists. And that's not getting into environmental reviews if there are at-risk species dwelling in that park. All of those things take time. Programmers always complain about their customers wanting X in a few weeks when it really takes months. So why are programmers always complaining that it takes engineers, geologists, architects, and city planners months to do their jobs? Unlike programming, the stuff these professionals are doing/reviewing can't just be fixed with a patch.
- 52-6F-62 6y ago
  Thankfully Waterfront Toronto has been doing those studies and has their own plan for the region! They want to convert a large part of the area into green lands and proper drainage of the Don River to prevent further flooding. I'm not sure if SWL's plan would have worked in conjunction with that work or if they would have overridden it.
- reportingsjr 6y ago
  >This is why it took a long time. The city was handing over management over part of itself in perpetuity. That needs to be done with care and deliberation. The city has the right at any time to revoke the MOU between the city and this group, so there wasn't really risk there. I understand that care should be taken, but at a certain point you begin having serious inefficiencies. >Moreover, there are liability issues related to third parties making alterations to city lands that could result in ruinous liability to the city if citizens get injured on the altered lands and the city didn't fully inspect the alterations. This is through an IMBA chapter which accepts all liability and responsibility and includes insurance coverage. This is not some new, unique thing that is happening. There are many dozens if not hundreds of these agreements in place in other cities already. >You also have potential drainage and soil issues to deal with, which need to be reviewed by geologists. And that's not getting into environmental reviews if there are at-risk species dwelling in that park. There aren't major structures being put in place, and most of the parks around here have very, very degraded ecosystems except in a few notable, well known locations. >All of those things take time. Programmers always complain about their customers wanting X in a few weeks when it really takes months. >So why are programmers always complaining that it takes engineers, geologists, architects, and city planners months to do their jobs? Unlike programming, the stuff these professionals are doing/reviewing can't just be fixed with a patch. For what its worth I'm an electrical engineer, not a programmer, that deals more with manufacturing. My last job involved electronics for explosive atmospheres that were expected to last 10+ years minimum, so I have a good understanding of not being able to quickly send out fixes with a patch. The process wasn't really transparent, so it really felt like people kind of dragging their feet and being very resistant to change. Something my city is known for (see famous Mark Twain quote about Cincy and the end of the world). I understand very well taking months to do things, but years for something like this is maddening.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
tomjakubowski 6y ago
I'm so confused by this comment. You're saying there is some city planning problem unique to the United States, but also cities in Canada? Could you help me understand how some friction to building in Cincinatti is relevant to Toronto or San Francisco, when different laws and political bodies apply to all?
- reportingsjr 6y ago
  Sorry, in my mind I combine the US and Canada since much of the planning coverage is in the same news outlets (e.g. streetsblog). For what its worth Canada seems to have many of the same planning and development issues the US has struggled with for the past decades.
derefr 6y ago
> It took 20 years for the park board to even listen On that sort of timescale, that's less down to "things move slowly" and more down to "you can't get anything done in the wrong political climate, so you have to wait until appointed officials die and/or an entire generational shift in your municipality produces a sea-change of political views."
- reportingsjr 6y ago
  Which is almost precisely what happened. Cincinnati is notorious for this sort of thing.
  - derefr 6y ago
    Sure, but my point was that that's not just "moving slowly", it's Brownian motion: there's no guarantee political winds will ever shift favorably in your direction at all. They might drift in the opposite direction for hundreds of years. Community "evaporative cooling" in a city of decreasing population might just see whatever political currents are there get concentrated over time, rather than diminished. So, basically, any municipal political plan that involves "waiting the problem out" as a strategy, should never actually be chosen/pursued, because if time has any associated overhead costs, then the indefinite amount of time required will cause the overall strategy to have predictably negative ROI.