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This shouldn’t be the top comment. Yes, switching fields and expecting to just work professionally is naive and insulting towards the other profession. Has web

by emsy 6y ago

This shouldn’t be the top comment. Yes, switching fields and expecting to just work professionally is naive and insulting towards the other profession. Has web dev a lot of legacy cruft and suffers from over-engineering? Absolutely. Even for seasoned programmers starting web dev is harder than it needs to be. Front end development has JS frameworks, CSS or compile-to-CSS languages, templating, web packing, JS transpilers, tree pruning, multiple package managers and what not. But in the end it’s just a bunch of text, images and buttons.

goto11 6y ago
But you don't need any of that. A static HTML page and a bit of CSS for styling and you have a web site. If you don't think package management or transpilers makes your particular project simpler, then don't use them. They are tools.
- emsy 6y ago
  Yes, that’s correct. And also missing the point.
  - goto11 6y ago
    No, that is quite relevant to the point. Web development have become easier over time. For example styling is much easier with better and more consistent CSS support in browsers. But at the same time people are attempting much more complex stuff which requires complex tools. Perhaps there is a problem in the educational resources available if people think they need npm and typescript to build a simple website.
    - emsy 6y ago
      The point is that for someone starting out, web development looks complex. And it is. I know it because I teach this stuff. Ignoring 99% of the industry and use the bare minimum to write a web app is something an expert does. When you’re a beginner you lack the knowledge to recognize expertise. And when most tutorials suggest a heavy stack you‘ll likely stick with the majority. And even when you’re lucky and learn how to write simple web apps from scratch, CSS, HTML and JS are anything but sensible technologies, even with the latest additions that admittedly improved things a lot.
lucideer 6y ago
Every field has cruft. Part of gaining experience in a field is not only learning how to do things, but also learning how to navigate the field and differentiate the cruft from that which is of value. > Even for seasoned programmers starting web dev is harder than it needs to be. Maybe, but is it harder than it "can be", or is it significantly different to other fields in this respect. I don't believe so. If you think the extra layers of unnecessary complexity noone needs is either (a) unique to web dev or (b) easily removable, then I think you may have a slightly naïve perspective on humans & society in general. A perfectly organised and navigable field is pretty utopic.
stupidcar 6y ago
You can reduce any field to "it's a just bunch of...": All coding is just a bunch of binary numbers. All chemistry and biology is just a bunch of molecules. All construction is just a bunch of concrete, bricks and steel. It's nonsense, and is exactly the kind of naive and insulting statement you talked about. Complexity is emergent. Look below any complex system and you'll find a simpler one, but that doesn't mean the higher-level complexity is unnecessary. All the things you complained about have good reasons to exist, invented by people who actually work as professional web developers and need to solve problems. The real problem is "seasoned programmers" who don't work in web development, but who expect to be able to jump in an master it in a day, based on the fact that they put together a GeoCities homepage twenty years ago, and are enraged and disgusted to find that things aren't so simple anymore. It's absurd. Developers wouldn't expect to be able to jump into kernel development, or database development, and find it to be a breeze.
- emsy 6y ago
  > Developers wouldn't expect to be able to jump into kernel development, or database development, and find it to be a breeze. Yes, that’s correct. In my experience, in those fields the complexity of the solution scales with the complexity of the problem. However, modern web development usually tries to squash every problem under a huge stack of complex frameworks and libraries. How many “full stack” kernel or database developers are there? Complexity is not always emergent. In the case of web development it’s in large parts self inflicted. My point was that modern web development is more complex than it needs to be and you didn’t rebut it.
- rsynnott 6y ago
  So, the thing is... I'm not a webdev, though I've done web development in the distant past (early noughties). I'm not a desktop dev, though again done it in the late nineties and early noughties. I messed around with modern desktop/mobile dev recently (specifically Cocoa) and it's basically fine; in many ways simpler and better abstracted than what I was used to (mostly GTK+ and some win32 stuff back in the day). I looked at modern webdev stuff... and I'm sorry, it's insane. Vast increase in complexity for, for most purposes, no real gains. I can't think of anywhere else this is the case. If you want to access an SQL database, that's easier than it used to be, and better abstractions on top are available if you want them. If you want to write a web API, that's easier than it used to be, and again nice abstractions are available. If you want to process tens of terabytes of data, that's so much easier it's not even funny. But if you want to write a webapp... unless you totally ignore the modern stuff it's vastly, vastly more complex than it used to be. I suppose this may be my grumpy old man side coming out, but I really don't find modern single page apps to be a better experience than mid-noughties webapps in the vast majority of cases. They're usually worse; in particular they're usually slower, and mess with UI expectations more. And yet they are _vastly_ more difficult to produce. The whole thing seems like it took a wrong turn somewhere.
agumonkey 6y ago
To me there's hard and hard. (reminiscent of simple vs easy). Hard concepts are ok for anybody with adult desire to learn. It's the ad-hoc transient social choices (package managers, conventions, ecosystems) that are overwhelming. It's draining.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
saati 6y ago
Why should you decide which comment should be the tlc?

by emsy 6y ago

goto11 6y ago

But you don't need any of that. A static HTML page and a bit of CSS for styling and you have a web site. If you don't think package management or transpilers makes your particular project simpler, then don't use them. They are tools.

emsy 6y ago
Yes, that’s correct. And also missing the point.
- goto11 6y ago
  No, that is quite relevant to the point. Web development have become easier over time. For example styling is much easier with better and more consistent CSS support in browsers. But at the same time people are attempting much more complex stuff which requires complex tools. Perhaps there is a problem in the educational resources available if people think they need npm and typescript to build a simple website.
  - emsy 6y ago
    The point is that for someone starting out, web development looks complex. And it is. I know it because I teach this stuff. Ignoring 99% of the industry and use the bare minimum to write a web app is something an expert does. When you’re a beginner you lack the knowledge to recognize expertise. And when most tutorials suggest a heavy stack you‘ll likely stick with the majority. And even when you’re lucky and learn how to write simple web apps from scratch, CSS, HTML and JS are anything but sensible technologies, even with the latest additions that admittedly improved things a lot.

lucideer 6y ago

Every field has cruft. Part of gaining experience in a field is not only learning how to do things, but also learning how to navigate the field and differentiate the cruft from that which is of value. > Even for seasoned programmers starting web dev is harder than it needs to be. Maybe, but is it harder than it "can be", or is it significantly different to other fields in this respect. I don't believe so. If you think the extra layers of unnecessary complexity noone needs is either (a) unique to web dev or (b) easily removable, then I think you may have a slightly naïve perspective on humans & society in general. A perfectly organised and navigable field is pretty utopic.

stupidcar 6y ago

You can reduce any field to "it's a just bunch of...": All coding is just a bunch of binary numbers. All chemistry and biology is just a bunch of molecules. All construction is just a bunch of concrete, bricks and steel. It's nonsense, and is exactly the kind of naive and insulting statement you talked about. Complexity is emergent. Look below any complex system and you'll find a simpler one, but that doesn't mean the higher-level complexity is unnecessary. All the things you complained about have good reasons to exist, invented by people who actually work as professional web developers and need to solve problems. The real problem is "seasoned programmers" who don't work in web development, but who expect to be able to jump in an master it in a day, based on the fact that they put together a GeoCities homepage twenty years ago, and are enraged and disgusted to find that things aren't so simple anymore. It's absurd. Developers wouldn't expect to be able to jump into kernel development, or database development, and find it to be a breeze.

emsy 6y ago
> Developers wouldn't expect to be able to jump into kernel development, or database development, and find it to be a breeze. Yes, that’s correct. In my experience, in those fields the complexity of the solution scales with the complexity of the problem. However, modern web development usually tries to squash every problem under a huge stack of complex frameworks and libraries. How many “full stack” kernel or database developers are there? Complexity is not always emergent. In the case of web development it’s in large parts self inflicted. My point was that modern web development is more complex than it needs to be and you didn’t rebut it.
rsynnott 6y ago
So, the thing is... I'm not a webdev, though I've done web development in the distant past (early noughties). I'm not a desktop dev, though again done it in the late nineties and early noughties. I messed around with modern desktop/mobile dev recently (specifically Cocoa) and it's basically fine; in many ways simpler and better abstracted than what I was used to (mostly GTK+ and some win32 stuff back in the day). I looked at modern webdev stuff... and I'm sorry, it's insane. Vast increase in complexity for, for most purposes, no real gains. I can't think of anywhere else this is the case. If you want to access an SQL database, that's easier than it used to be, and better abstractions on top are available if you want them. If you want to write a web API, that's easier than it used to be, and again nice abstractions are available. If you want to process tens of terabytes of data, that's so much easier it's not even funny. But if you want to write a webapp... unless you totally ignore the modern stuff it's vastly, vastly more complex than it used to be. I suppose this may be my grumpy old man side coming out, but I really don't find modern single page apps to be a better experience than mid-noughties webapps in the vast majority of cases. They're usually worse; in particular they're usually slower, and mess with UI expectations more. And yet they are _vastly_ more difficult to produce. The whole thing seems like it took a wrong turn somewhere.

agumonkey 6y ago

To me there's hard and hard. (reminiscent of simple vs easy). Hard concepts are ok for anybody with adult desire to learn. It's the ad-hoc transient social choices (package managers, conventions, ecosystems) that are overwhelming. It's draining.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

saati 6y ago

Why should you decide which comment should be the tlc?