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Seeing the Tartars
- voldacar 6y agoArticles with names like "X as Y in Z" are almost invariably awful, but this was actually super interesting, and made me want to read some of those primary source documents from the 13th century.
- danielam 6y agoHaven't yet read the article in full (though I am familiar with the murderous medieval Tartar raids in Poland), but last summer, I visited the Tartar[0] village of Kruszyniany in northeastern Poland. During the tour of the local mosque[1], the Tartar tour guide touched on Polish-Tartar relations over the centuries. When asked by Crimean Tartars why they fought against their brothers in the faith (under the Catholic Polish banner, no less), the Polish Tartars responded that they do not fight them as brothers, but as thieves and robbers. In other words, the Lipka Tartars also have a long tradition of loyalty to one European state, the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth (and its successor states). The meaning of that loyalty, and in the broader Islamic context, would be an interesting thing to understand, but for some Muslims, their loyalty has been baffling, perhaps even offensive. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipka_Tatars https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipka_Tatars [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kruszyniany_Mosque https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kruszyniany_Mosque
- jcranmer 6y agoShouldn't it be the "Tatars", not the "Tartars"?
- theflyinghorse 6y agoI second this. (Source - I am one)
- keiferski 6y agoTatar became a name for populations of the former Golden Horde in Europe, such as those of the former Kazan, Crimean, Astrakhan, Qasim, and Siberian Khanates. The form Tartar has its origins in either Latin or French, coming to Western European languages from Turkish and the Persian language (tātār, "mounted messenger"). From the beginning, the extra r was present in the Western forms, and according to the Oxford English Dictionary this was most likely due to an association with Tartarus. - In Greek mythology, Tartarus (/ˈtɑːrtərəs/; Ancient Greek: Τάρταρος, Tártaros)[1] is the deep abyss that is used as a dungeon of torment and suffering for the wicked and as the prison for the Titans. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatars https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatars https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tartarus https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tartarus
- jhbadger 6y agoWestern languages traditionally called them Tartars. More recently, there has been a trend to use Tatar instead, as that is closer to how the people call themselves. But this is dealing with historical sources in which Tartar was used.
- jogundas 6y agoOn the subject of Mongols, I highly recommend the popular lectures by Dan Carlin https://www.dancarlin.com/product/hardcore-history-wrath-of-the-khans-series/ https://www.dancarlin.com/product/hardcore-history-wrath-of-... . Very entertaining, but also historically accurate and balanced.