7 ms·

Facebook engineering generally is super competent. Leet code or not, such slip ups are bound to happen from time to time. True test of competence would be these

Facebook engineering generally is super competent. Leet code or not, such slip ups are bound to happen from time to time. True test of competence would be these mistakes don't repeat and that they learn from it, which I'm pretty sure they would.

mlthoughts2018 7y ago
> “ True test of competence would be these mistakes don't repeat and that they learn from it, which I'm pretty sure they would.” Which begs the question why test engineers with leetcode trivia bullshit. You are yourself emphasizing why their interview process (and they are just one of many offenders) is so bananas inappropriate.
- pb7 7y ago
  One single bug is why their process is bananas inappropriate? I really hope all of your code is perfect every single time to be acting so high and mighty.
  - mlthoughts2018 7y ago
    This is so shortsighted it’s painful. You’re describing the attitude Facebook takes towards candidates, not the attitude I take towards anything. Candidates should be saying to Facebook, “ I really hope all of your code is perfect every single time to be acting so high and mighty” and absolutely making a huge deal out of a case like this when it isn’t.
    - pb7 7y ago
      You are making a MASSIVE assumption that most people dislike Leetcode. I personally don't and neither does anyone I know. It's way better than the interview formats of almost every other profession out there that's 2 parts sucking up, 2 parts connections, and 1 part luck. Show me a better process that can handle 100,000+ candidates a year with a stronger signal and less or equal time invested and I'll change my mind. At the very least, hating the current process shows that you're lazy, stubborn, and unwilling to learn what is necessary to get the job done. Hardly desirable traits in a coworker.
      - mlthoughts2018 7y ago
        > “ You are making a MASSIVE assumption that most people dislike Leetcode.” No, this is not an assumption.
        pb7 7y ago
        I get it, you got rejected and are bitter about it now. Your feelings are very common among those who didn't make the cut, but they're far from universal. Better luck next time.
        durovo 7y ago
        Well I like Leetcode type interviews a lot.
  - Apocryphon 7y ago
    This isn't exactly the first time Facebook has been called out for poor engineering practices: https://www.darkcoding.net/software/facebooks-code-quality-problem/ https://www.darkcoding.net/software/facebooks-code-quality-p... https://blog.timac.org/2017/0410-analysis-of-the-facebook-app-for-ios-v-87-0/ https://blog.timac.org/2017/0410-analysis-of-the-facebook-ap...
    - pb7 7y ago
      So what? They're an enormous engineering company with many millions of lines of code. Bugs are expected.
      - Apocryphon 7y ago
        Those criticisms aren't about mere bugs, but a bloated over-engineered iOS apps with far too many classes (18k back in 2015) [0]. The Android app was also previously notorious for patching Dalvik at runtime to deal with the huge number of Java methods [1]. Granted, perhaps things have gotten better in the last five years. It's certainly possible for an enormous engineering company to have poor code quality or poor engineering practices, despite having a high interviewing standard. And a criticism of Facebook need not be a criticism of all companies that interview by Leetcode, for instance no one here is criticizing Google, Amazon, or Apple, and all have better reputations for code quality. [0] https://www.reddit.com/r/iOSProgramming/comments/6upeu6/how_on_earth_is_the_facebook_app_size_so_large/dluf4rc/ https://www.reddit.com/r/iOSProgramming/comments/6upeu6/how_... [1] https://www.facebook.com/notes/facebook-engineering/under-the-hood-dalvik-patch-for-facebook-for-android/10151345597798920 https://www.facebook.com/notes/facebook-engineering/under-th...
        saagarjha 7y ago
        I think I’ve done things like what Facebook did, when I was writing one-off security exploit scripts. Someone needs to stop that team.
5cott0 7y ago
So you're saying we can be confident they won't break democracy again?
- airstrike 7y ago
  https://www.quitfacebook.org/img/zucc-ads-smile-robot-small.gif https://www.quitfacebook.org/img/zucc-ads-smile-robot-small....
- pb7 7y ago
  What does that have to do with engineering talent?
  - 5cott0 7y ago
    It has everything to do with it. Software engineers should take care to consider the risks and potential downsides to the shady products they build with that talent that aren't just downtime or tech debt but the larger impact to society itself. Silicon Valley prioritizes technical talent while completely disregarding strength and quality of character.
Lammy 7y ago
> True test of competence would be these mistakes don't repeat and that they learn from it It's not that they aren't smart or don't learn but that FB's performance review process rewards optimizing for growth over reliability/sustainability. e: you can downvote me but I lived it so you won't change my mind :)
SwiftyBug 7y ago
Exactly. OP makes it harder on everyone expecting engineers to be flawless just because they've gone through a very selective hiring process. Programming is hard.
- stefan_ 7y ago
  Lets skip the hyperbole, appeals to authority and platitudes. This crash is from handwritten API response wrapping code that lacks checks. This is string-based programming. This is utter shit.
  - mynameisvlad 7y ago
    Ok, I'm sure you've written perfect code your entire career and have never made a single mistake, however simple, and however early in your career. Right? If you want to criticize something, criticize the testing that let this change through, not the developer who made it. We were all young and inexperienced once, we've all had bad days, and we've all written crap code. This is only unique because it affected a lot of people.
    - madeofpalk 7y ago
      > criticize the testing Criticise the process that let it through. Why was the testing not sufficient? Was it even tested at all? Maybe a developer just "pushed it straight to master"? Why/how can they do that (hypothetically)
    - rdgthree 7y ago
      Without staking my flag on either side of this argument, it's a bit silly to say "the only reason this stands out is because it affected so many people" as if that's a reasonable counter-argument. The large amount of people affected reinforces your parent comment's argument. Something that has the potential to affect an immense amount of people should be treated with a relative amount of care. Writing crap code and pushing carelessly would be a far more significant failure of judgement if that code were in the Facebook SDK than if it were in Johnny's Hello World App. It's also worth noting the difference between writing code with a minor change in behavior that when pushed to production causes an unexpected domino-effect of obfuscated cascading failures across multiple different services that eventually impacts an immense amount of people, vs. directly writing code that crashes on the client side and impacts an immense amount of people. This is the latter.
akmarinov 7y ago
That’s not a slip up on their end, it’s a feature to enable them to collect stuff even if you don’t use their code.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

mlthoughts2018 7y ago

> “ True test of competence would be these mistakes don't repeat and that they learn from it, which I'm pretty sure they would.” Which begs the question why test engineers with leetcode trivia bullshit. You are yourself emphasizing why their interview process (and they are just one of many offenders) is so bananas inappropriate.

pb7 7y ago
One single bug is why their process is bananas inappropriate? I really hope all of your code is perfect every single time to be acting so high and mighty.
- mlthoughts2018 7y ago
  This is so shortsighted it’s painful. You’re describing the attitude Facebook takes towards candidates, not the attitude I take towards anything. Candidates should be saying to Facebook, “ I really hope all of your code is perfect every single time to be acting so high and mighty” and absolutely making a huge deal out of a case like this when it isn’t.
  - pb7 7y ago
    You are making a MASSIVE assumption that most people dislike Leetcode. I personally don't and neither does anyone I know. It's way better than the interview formats of almost every other profession out there that's 2 parts sucking up, 2 parts connections, and 1 part luck. Show me a better process that can handle 100,000+ candidates a year with a stronger signal and less or equal time invested and I'll change my mind. At the very least, hating the current process shows that you're lazy, stubborn, and unwilling to learn what is necessary to get the job done. Hardly desirable traits in a coworker.
    - mlthoughts2018 7y ago
      > “ You are making a MASSIVE assumption that most people dislike Leetcode.” No, this is not an assumption.
      - pb7 7y ago
        I get it, you got rejected and are bitter about it now. Your feelings are very common among those who didn't make the cut, but they're far from universal. Better luck next time.
      - durovo 7y ago
        Well I like Leetcode type interviews a lot.
- Apocryphon 7y ago
  This isn't exactly the first time Facebook has been called out for poor engineering practices: https://www.darkcoding.net/software/facebooks-code-quality-problem/ https://www.darkcoding.net/software/facebooks-code-quality-p... https://blog.timac.org/2017/0410-analysis-of-the-facebook-app-for-ios-v-87-0/ https://blog.timac.org/2017/0410-analysis-of-the-facebook-ap...
  - pb7 7y ago
    So what? They're an enormous engineering company with many millions of lines of code. Bugs are expected.
    - Apocryphon 7y ago
      Those criticisms aren't about mere bugs, but a bloated over-engineered iOS apps with far too many classes (18k back in 2015) [0]. The Android app was also previously notorious for patching Dalvik at runtime to deal with the huge number of Java methods [1]. Granted, perhaps things have gotten better in the last five years. It's certainly possible for an enormous engineering company to have poor code quality or poor engineering practices, despite having a high interviewing standard. And a criticism of Facebook need not be a criticism of all companies that interview by Leetcode, for instance no one here is criticizing Google, Amazon, or Apple, and all have better reputations for code quality. [0] https://www.reddit.com/r/iOSProgramming/comments/6upeu6/how_on_earth_is_the_facebook_app_size_so_large/dluf4rc/ https://www.reddit.com/r/iOSProgramming/comments/6upeu6/how_... [1] https://www.facebook.com/notes/facebook-engineering/under-the-hood-dalvik-patch-for-facebook-for-android/10151345597798920 https://www.facebook.com/notes/facebook-engineering/under-th...
      - saagarjha 7y ago
        I think I’ve done things like what Facebook did, when I was writing one-off security exploit scripts. Someone needs to stop that team.

5cott0 7y ago

So you're saying we can be confident they won't break democracy again?

airstrike 7y ago
https://www.quitfacebook.org/img/zucc-ads-smile-robot-small.gif https://www.quitfacebook.org/img/zucc-ads-smile-robot-small....
pb7 7y ago
What does that have to do with engineering talent?
- 5cott0 7y ago
  It has everything to do with it. Software engineers should take care to consider the risks and potential downsides to the shady products they build with that talent that aren't just downtime or tech debt but the larger impact to society itself. Silicon Valley prioritizes technical talent while completely disregarding strength and quality of character.

Lammy 7y ago

> True test of competence would be these mistakes don't repeat and that they learn from it It's not that they aren't smart or don't learn but that FB's performance review process rewards optimizing for growth over reliability/sustainability. e: you can downvote me but I lived it so you won't change my mind :)

SwiftyBug 7y ago

Exactly. OP makes it harder on everyone expecting engineers to be flawless just because they've gone through a very selective hiring process. Programming is hard.

stefan_ 7y ago
Lets skip the hyperbole, appeals to authority and platitudes. This crash is from handwritten API response wrapping code that lacks checks. This is string-based programming. This is utter shit.
- mynameisvlad 7y ago
  Ok, I'm sure you've written perfect code your entire career and have never made a single mistake, however simple, and however early in your career. Right? If you want to criticize something, criticize the testing that let this change through, not the developer who made it. We were all young and inexperienced once, we've all had bad days, and we've all written crap code. This is only unique because it affected a lot of people.
  - madeofpalk 7y ago
    > criticize the testing Criticise the process that let it through. Why was the testing not sufficient? Was it even tested at all? Maybe a developer just "pushed it straight to master"? Why/how can they do that (hypothetically)
  - rdgthree 7y ago
    Without staking my flag on either side of this argument, it's a bit silly to say "the only reason this stands out is because it affected so many people" as if that's a reasonable counter-argument. The large amount of people affected reinforces your parent comment's argument. Something that has the potential to affect an immense amount of people should be treated with a relative amount of care. Writing crap code and pushing carelessly would be a far more significant failure of judgement if that code were in the Facebook SDK than if it were in Johnny's Hello World App. It's also worth noting the difference between writing code with a minor change in behavior that when pushed to production causes an unexpected domino-effect of obfuscated cascading failures across multiple different services that eventually impacts an immense amount of people, vs. directly writing code that crashes on the client side and impacts an immense amount of people. This is the latter.

akmarinov 7y ago

That’s not a slip up on their end, it’s a feature to enable them to collect stuff even if you don’t use their code.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]