4 ms·

It seems people in old Novgorod didn't speak a Slavic language, but something they picked up from the Varangians.

jacobush 6y ago
I thought the text looked almost legible. (I.e. Germanic.) But it was just an illusion because scratching in birch naturally will look rune like. Apparently Onfim used Cyrillic letters, but spoke a Germanic language. So my wrong guess was still sort of right but by accident. :-D Edit: but it is Slavic?! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Novgorod_dialect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Novgorod_dialect Can you please say where you found it was a Varangian dialect? Edit 2: https://www.history.com/news/vikings-in-russia-kiev-rus-varangians-prince-oleg https://www.history.com/news/vikings-in-russia-kiev-rus-vara... Maybe an (incorrect) assumption because "Vikings" ruled Rus for a long time.
- latko 6y ago
  It is Slavic. As a Russian speaker I can understand some phrases of the text.
  - 10101 6y ago
    oh really. Which phrases you understand?
    - legerdemain 6y ago
      The writing is crooked and childish, partly owing to the fact that it's scratched with a stylus on tree bark, but to anyone who reads Russian or another adjacent Slavic language, pieces of the text are immediately comprehensible. It's even easier to make progress if you've seen Church Slavonic writing and text abbreviations, which are ubiquitous on religious imagery present in basically every Eastern Orthodox church throughout Russia and other countries with Orthodox churches. The "I am a beast" letter says the following: (text box) ПОКОЛОNО ѿ ОNΘΗМА КО ДАNΗЛѢ (free-floating) Ѧ ЗВѢРЕ After accounting for the mixture of letters from the modern Russian alphabet, the Greek alphabet, antiquated Slavic letters like Ѣ and Ѧ, and the unfamiliar orthographic abbreviation ѿ (which is a tau Τ planted on top of an omega ω), the first inscriptions say, using modernized orthography and syntax, "поклон от онфима к даниле" and "я зверь," or "greetings from Onfim to Danilo" and "I am a beast." The remaining inscriptions are an exercise for the reader.
      - 10101 6y ago
        so where are russian words? What you wrote is mix of Cyrrilic alphabet, the Greek alphabet, early Cyrillic/Glagolitic letters like Ѣ and Ѧ. And why you wrote Ѧ ЗВѢР'Е', while on the picture it's Ѧ ЗВѢРЄ? Does Russian alphabet have Є letter?
        romwell 6y ago
        >so where are russian words? Like, all of them? At least, "words comprehensible to a Russian-speaker". >Does Russian alphabet have Є letter? Ukrainian still does. It's closer to the Old Church Slavonic. And the Ѣ was only dropped 100 years ago by the commies. Regardless, nobody is saying that the beresty are modern Russian, just that it's in a Slavic language (and one comprehensible to modern-day Russian speakers). What's your point, exactly?
        drdaeman 6y ago
        > Does Russian alphabet have Є letter? This should resolve your confusion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Ye#Old_Slavonic.2C_Old_East_Slavic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Ye#Old_Slavonic.2C_O... I believe, U+0415 ("E") is a valid character to use there. Sadly, there's no way to denote that the text is in Old Slavonic and should use different script so this "E" would be rendered visually similar to "Є". While Unicode code points typically correspond to graphemes, that's not always true. Similar issues exist with Chinese, Japanese and Korean languages, as Unicode (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_unification#Graphemes_versus_glyphs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_unification#Graphemes_vers... - it has an example with Latin small letter "a")
rmrfchik 6y ago
Slavic had a number of alphabets. They drastically differs, compare Glagolitic and Cyrillic scripts. Now we (I'm Russian) in Russian use Cyrillic script which was heavily modified since invention. Seems like Onfim use Cyrillic script but many letters was made obsolete (like Yus). So, Onfim speak Slavic language and use Cyrillic script.
aasasd 6y ago
Novgorod bark notes are among primary sources for research on old Slavic language. In the very first paragraph there are two links to the page that explains what Old Novgorod dialect is.
bigdict 6y ago
That impression is incorrect.

I thought the text looked almost legible. (I.e. Germanic.) But it was just an illusion because scratching in birch naturally will look rune like. Apparently Onfim used Cyrillic letters, but spoke a Germanic language. So my wrong guess was still sort of right but by accident. :-D Edit: but it is Slavic?! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Novgorod_dialect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Novgorod_dialect Can you please say where you found it was a Varangian dialect? Edit 2: https://www.history.com/news/vikings-in-russia-kiev-rus-varangians-prince-oleg https://www.history.com/news/vikings-in-russia-kiev-rus-vara... Maybe an (incorrect) assumption because "Vikings" ruled Rus for a long time.

latko 6y ago
It is Slavic. As a Russian speaker I can understand some phrases of the text.
- 10101 6y ago
  oh really. Which phrases you understand?
  - legerdemain 6y ago
    The writing is crooked and childish, partly owing to the fact that it's scratched with a stylus on tree bark, but to anyone who reads Russian or another adjacent Slavic language, pieces of the text are immediately comprehensible. It's even easier to make progress if you've seen Church Slavonic writing and text abbreviations, which are ubiquitous on religious imagery present in basically every Eastern Orthodox church throughout Russia and other countries with Orthodox churches. The "I am a beast" letter says the following: (text box) ПОКОЛОNО ѿ ОNΘΗМА КО ДАNΗЛѢ (free-floating) Ѧ ЗВѢРЕ After accounting for the mixture of letters from the modern Russian alphabet, the Greek alphabet, antiquated Slavic letters like Ѣ and Ѧ, and the unfamiliar orthographic abbreviation ѿ (which is a tau Τ planted on top of an omega ω), the first inscriptions say, using modernized orthography and syntax, "поклон от онфима к даниле" and "я зверь," or "greetings from Onfim to Danilo" and "I am a beast." The remaining inscriptions are an exercise for the reader.
    - 10101 6y ago
      so where are russian words? What you wrote is mix of Cyrrilic alphabet, the Greek alphabet, early Cyrillic/Glagolitic letters like Ѣ and Ѧ. And why you wrote Ѧ ЗВѢР'Е', while on the picture it's Ѧ ЗВѢРЄ? Does Russian alphabet have Є letter?
      - romwell 6y ago
        >so where are russian words? Like, all of them? At least, "words comprehensible to a Russian-speaker". >Does Russian alphabet have Є letter? Ukrainian still does. It's closer to the Old Church Slavonic. And the Ѣ was only dropped 100 years ago by the commies. Regardless, nobody is saying that the beresty are modern Russian, just that it's in a Slavic language (and one comprehensible to modern-day Russian speakers). What's your point, exactly?
      - drdaeman 6y ago
        > Does Russian alphabet have Є letter? This should resolve your confusion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Ye#Old_Slavonic.2C_Old_East_Slavic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Ye#Old_Slavonic.2C_O... I believe, U+0415 ("E") is a valid character to use there. Sadly, there's no way to denote that the text is in Old Slavonic and should use different script so this "E" would be rendered visually similar to "Є". While Unicode code points typically correspond to graphemes, that's not always true. Similar issues exist with Chinese, Japanese and Korean languages, as Unicode (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_unification#Graphemes_versus_glyphs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_unification#Graphemes_vers... - it has an example with Latin small letter "a")

rmrfchik 6y ago

Slavic had a number of alphabets. They drastically differs, compare Glagolitic and Cyrillic scripts. Now we (I'm Russian) in Russian use Cyrillic script which was heavily modified since invention. Seems like Onfim use Cyrillic script but many letters was made obsolete (like Yus). So, Onfim speak Slavic language and use Cyrillic script.

aasasd 6y ago

Novgorod bark notes are among primary sources for research on old Slavic language. In the very first paragraph there are two links to the page that explains what Old Novgorod dialect is.

bigdict 6y ago

That impression is incorrect.