5 ms·

But your healthcare would be very cheap, if not free, wouldn't be tied to your employment; education cost would be minuscule compared to US; kids would benefit

But your healthcare would be very cheap, if not free, wouldn't be tied to your employment; education cost would be minuscule compared to US; kids would benefit from the first two factors too; minimum annual vacation would be 4 weeks, mandated by law. Sticker price doesn't tell the whole story. I'm not saying that the total benefit is lower, but the cost of earning that $175k is definitely much higher than the cost of that $50k.

fourmyle 6y ago
Health care is about $500 a month for someone in their 30s in the USA who is healthy. That doesn’t make up $125k.
- andruby 6y ago
  Sending your kids to school all the way up including university costs about ~€10K per kid in Europe. How much would it cost in the US? ~$150K? I think that would make up another large chunk of price difference. And: it’s available for every parent. Not just those in nice tech jobs.
  - bluecmd 6y ago
    That Europe cost seems high, tbh. In the Nordics for example I'm pretty sure everything is paid for.
    - 2rsf 6y ago
      all is paid for, at least in Sweden and Finland (not sure about Norway and Denmark), up to PhD
  - argonaut 6y ago
    For California residents, the top state schools are ~$57k in tuition for all 4 years (total). Yes, American private universities would cost more, but that's a choice to pay more if you think it's worth it.
    - LunaSea 6y ago
      That's a choice you don't have to make if you go to a top university in the EU though.
      - MisterPea 6y ago
        Sure, but for the vast majority of students they can get a quality education in-state. Plus schools like Cal, UCLA, Michigan, UVA and UW are among the best in the world
        acituan 6y ago
        As the pandemic demonstrated, quality of education is hardly relevant. It is all about the credentialism. 16 yo kids in Palo Alto didn’t threw themselves in front of the caltrain because they so desired a quality education. It is because there is so much competition in labor market that even their multi-millionaire parents could do so much. Why do you think we had an Operation Varsity Blues? If hyper-affluent is under this much pressure to cheat, what chance does the $175k/year software laborer’s kid have?
        deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
  - kortilla 6y ago
    All the way up is 17 years about of school. A $100k annual difference still puts the tech employee way ahead.
    - LunaSea 6y ago
      Not if you count rent / mortgage, car & car insurance or kindergarten. And you medical coverage might still cover less than the European one.
      - dsfyu404ed 6y ago
        >Not if you count rent / mortgage Depends where you live. There's no reason the 175k employee can't live somewhere "bad" or suffer a long commute. Most major western european cities and their suburbs are by no means cheap to find housing in. >car & car insurance Most white collar Europeans with families own cars. Owning and operating a vehicle is astronomically cheaper in the US, even in California which has insanely high costs compared to the median or mean state. >kindergarten Part of the free (at the point of use, obviously it's paid for by taxes) public school system in the US. >And you medical coverage might still cover less than the European one. I don't want to have a healthcare debate but the cost was addressed higher up the thread and the difference in coverage between what American BigCo employees get and what Europeans get (and both those classes of insurance are diverse enough to make comparison impractical without sweeping generalizations) is not going to be meaningful except in the edge cases.
        LunaSea 6y ago
        > Depends where you live. There's no reason the 175k employee can't live somewhere "bad" or suffer a long commute. Most major western european cities and their suburbs are by no means cheap to find housing in. I don't think there are many "bad" places that are cheap around Silicon Valley. Most western European cities have neighbourhoods that are drastically cheaper than the well-off ones. > Most white collar Europeans with families own cars. Owning and operating a vehicle is astronomically cheaper in the US, even in California which has insanely high costs compared to the median or mean state. New cars in America are twice as expensive as the average in the EU. Average car insurance in America is five times as expensive as the average in the EU. > Part of the free (at the point of use, obviously it's paid for by taxes) public school system in the US. Sorry, I meant nursery.* Kindergarten is free in the EU as well. > I don't want to have a healthcare debate but the cost was addressed higher up the thread and the difference in coverage between what American BigCo employees get and what Europeans get (and both those classes of insurance are diverse enough to make comparison impractical without sweeping generalizations) is not going to be meaningful except in the edge cases. Well that's convenient. Based on the American medical debt lets go with a lesser coverage for the American workforce. Also it's not taking into account the cost of opportunity of having medical insurance event when you won't be employed anymore in case of an accident or other reason.
- acituan 6y ago
  But you won’t be 30 and healthy forever. Medical costs skyrocket with old age, at a scale that can easily make your 100k/year savings irrelevant.
  - fourmyle 6y ago
    $100k/yr savings over 10 years is $1M. Were you assuming someone would blow the money?
    - acituan 6y ago
      To give one idea, nursing home room cost is 100k/year. Considering the possibility of chronic conditions, specialized treatments and overall increase in healthcare usage, in the span between 70-90 it is very easy go over >2M.
      - fourmyle 6y ago
        My parents put up grandma with Dementia in PA for about $50k a year in nice place. Are you drawing figures from movie star nursing homes in LA or something? Do you think the average American just puts a bullet in their head after 70? The household income in this country is about $60k a year. Your math is ludicrous.
discordianfish 6y ago
Health care is >$800/month in Germany. I don't get why we get away with the notation that health care is free. It's not free, health insurance is simply compulsory here.
- 2rsf 6y ago
  In Sweden it's almost free. You pay as you go with ceilings of around 100$ for medicines and 100$ for doctor visits, kids are free.
- acituan 6y ago
  800$ is the nominal price. Real price is the fact that it is not tied to your employer, particularly your employers’ negotiation power with the insurance company. Which in turn increases your negotiation power as an employee. Not only for pay, but also other non-priced issues like quality coworkers, meaningful job etc.

fourmyle 6y ago

Health care is about $500 a month for someone in their 30s in the USA who is healthy. That doesn’t make up $125k.

andruby 6y ago
Sending your kids to school all the way up including university costs about ~€10K per kid in Europe. How much would it cost in the US? ~$150K? I think that would make up another large chunk of price difference. And: it’s available for every parent. Not just those in nice tech jobs.
- bluecmd 6y ago
  That Europe cost seems high, tbh. In the Nordics for example I'm pretty sure everything is paid for.
  - 2rsf 6y ago
    all is paid for, at least in Sweden and Finland (not sure about Norway and Denmark), up to PhD
- argonaut 6y ago
  For California residents, the top state schools are ~$57k in tuition for all 4 years (total). Yes, American private universities would cost more, but that's a choice to pay more if you think it's worth it.
  - LunaSea 6y ago
    That's a choice you don't have to make if you go to a top university in the EU though.
    - MisterPea 6y ago
      Sure, but for the vast majority of students they can get a quality education in-state. Plus schools like Cal, UCLA, Michigan, UVA and UW are among the best in the world
      - acituan 6y ago
        As the pandemic demonstrated, quality of education is hardly relevant. It is all about the credentialism. 16 yo kids in Palo Alto didn’t threw themselves in front of the caltrain because they so desired a quality education. It is because there is so much competition in labor market that even their multi-millionaire parents could do so much. Why do you think we had an Operation Varsity Blues? If hyper-affluent is under this much pressure to cheat, what chance does the $175k/year software laborer’s kid have?
        deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
- kortilla 6y ago
  All the way up is 17 years about of school. A $100k annual difference still puts the tech employee way ahead.
  - LunaSea 6y ago
    Not if you count rent / mortgage, car & car insurance or kindergarten. And you medical coverage might still cover less than the European one.
    - dsfyu404ed 6y ago
      >Not if you count rent / mortgage Depends where you live. There's no reason the 175k employee can't live somewhere "bad" or suffer a long commute. Most major western european cities and their suburbs are by no means cheap to find housing in. >car & car insurance Most white collar Europeans with families own cars. Owning and operating a vehicle is astronomically cheaper in the US, even in California which has insanely high costs compared to the median or mean state. >kindergarten Part of the free (at the point of use, obviously it's paid for by taxes) public school system in the US. >And you medical coverage might still cover less than the European one. I don't want to have a healthcare debate but the cost was addressed higher up the thread and the difference in coverage between what American BigCo employees get and what Europeans get (and both those classes of insurance are diverse enough to make comparison impractical without sweeping generalizations) is not going to be meaningful except in the edge cases.
      - LunaSea 6y ago
        > Depends where you live. There's no reason the 175k employee can't live somewhere "bad" or suffer a long commute. Most major western european cities and their suburbs are by no means cheap to find housing in. I don't think there are many "bad" places that are cheap around Silicon Valley. Most western European cities have neighbourhoods that are drastically cheaper than the well-off ones. > Most white collar Europeans with families own cars. Owning and operating a vehicle is astronomically cheaper in the US, even in California which has insanely high costs compared to the median or mean state. New cars in America are twice as expensive as the average in the EU. Average car insurance in America is five times as expensive as the average in the EU. > Part of the free (at the point of use, obviously it's paid for by taxes) public school system in the US. Sorry, I meant nursery.* Kindergarten is free in the EU as well. > I don't want to have a healthcare debate but the cost was addressed higher up the thread and the difference in coverage between what American BigCo employees get and what Europeans get (and both those classes of insurance are diverse enough to make comparison impractical without sweeping generalizations) is not going to be meaningful except in the edge cases. Well that's convenient. Based on the American medical debt lets go with a lesser coverage for the American workforce. Also it's not taking into account the cost of opportunity of having medical insurance event when you won't be employed anymore in case of an accident or other reason.
acituan 6y ago
But you won’t be 30 and healthy forever. Medical costs skyrocket with old age, at a scale that can easily make your 100k/year savings irrelevant.
- fourmyle 6y ago
  $100k/yr savings over 10 years is $1M. Were you assuming someone would blow the money?
  - acituan 6y ago
    To give one idea, nursing home room cost is 100k/year. Considering the possibility of chronic conditions, specialized treatments and overall increase in healthcare usage, in the span between 70-90 it is very easy go over >2M.
    - fourmyle 6y ago
      My parents put up grandma with Dementia in PA for about $50k a year in nice place. Are you drawing figures from movie star nursing homes in LA or something? Do you think the average American just puts a bullet in their head after 70? The household income in this country is about $60k a year. Your math is ludicrous.

discordianfish 6y ago

Health care is >$800/month in Germany. I don't get why we get away with the notation that health care is free. It's not free, health insurance is simply compulsory here.

2rsf 6y ago
In Sweden it's almost free. You pay as you go with ceilings of around 100$ for medicines and 100$ for doctor visits, kids are free.
acituan 6y ago
800$ is the nominal price. Real price is the fact that it is not tied to your employer, particularly your employers’ negotiation power with the insurance company. Which in turn increases your negotiation power as an employee. Not only for pay, but also other non-priced issues like quality coworkers, meaningful job etc.