6 ms·

Pardon my frankness but that's BS. What are you referring to here? How much money buys you? Aka: costs of living? How much you make, converting EUR to USD? W

Pardon my frankness but that's BS. What are you referring to here? How much money buys you? Aka: costs of living? How much you make, converting EUR to USD? What industry? IT? I worked in a leadership position at a multi-national in Berlin for almost five years. I know the salaries the engineers had in CA & Chicago vs Germany. US was maybe 20% more max. In terms of what it buys you ... not so much. See below. Cost of living in Munich (one of Germany's most expensive cities) vs. SF.[1] And then Berlin (one of Germany's cheapest cities) vs. SF.[2] [1] https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Germany&city1=Munich&country2=United+States&city2=San+Francisco%2C+CA https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou... [2] https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Germany&city1=Berlin&country2=United+States&city2=San+Francisco%2C+CA https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou...

RHSeeger 6y ago
I assumed what was meant was how generous it was compared to a normal severance package in the country. Ie, if a normal package would be 2 months in the US and this is 3.5, then saying it's like a 12 month package in Germany implies that a normal German package would be just under 7 months.
eanzenberg 6y ago
It’s worth making 4x in the states and paying less taxes to boot. Forget cost of living, only rent is more expensive so tack on an extra $2k a month if you don’t want to live with roommates.
- concerned_user 6y ago
  While you are young and healthy sure, but if something happens to you or when you get older, not so much.
  - manigandham 6y ago
    Why not? Can't you purchase the same insurance, protections and care with 4x earnings and lower taxes?
    - LunaSea 6y ago
      Well for one you might but it will be incredibly expensive and probably still cover less than in the Netherlands. Also, the cost means that it is something you can only afford while you are still working. So if you do get hurt and can't work or get fired you lose that privilege. That is also a cost of opportunity that you lose by living in the US and that is not factored into the price of the insurance directly.
      - eanzenberg 6y ago
        This US healthcare meme is tiring and uninformed. A small minority have financial hardships due to medical emergencies here, and they for the most part aren’t poor, who get healthcare for free.
        deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
      - manigandham 6y ago
        You don't have to keep working. Workers compensation, life insurance, long-term care policies all exist. There's really not much different in what's available, only who's responsible for it. In America, you earn and keep more and it's up to you to allocate properly (or not). In other countries, the government does it all for you to ensure there's a base level of support for everyone.
        LunaSea 6y ago
        It's not a question of availability it's a question of price. If you need to pay for a very expensive medical insurance then you can only afford it while employed which you won't be if you have health issues that prevent you from doing so or get fired.
- LunaSea 6y ago
  Cars are also vastly more expensive and so is medical insurance.
  - RhodesianHunter 6y ago
    Cars are NOT more expensive, especially not after you factor in the obscene cost of fuel in the EU. Healthcare is free at the vast majority of tech companies in the US.
- 2rsf 6y ago
  > Forget cost of living You can forget it when you are young, healthy and single. Put a wife and couple of kids into the equation, a sickness here and there plus a small risk to become unemployed and everything changes.
deaddodo 6y ago
They're referring to specifically the tech industry. Which is, most assuredly, higher paid in California than anywhere else around the globe (in the mean, there are obvious exceptions). This comes from a person with EU citizenship who has shopped jobs/interviewed in multiple major cities in Europe; including Munich, Berlin, Amsterdam, London, Dublin and Prague. It's not insignificant. We're talking 150-220k USD/yr in LA vs 75-95k EUR/yr in Amsterdam (as an example, since it paid the greatest during my search) for a similar seniority role. That's before accounting for nominal tax differences (~37% LA vs ~38-42% AMS; which is significant at that delta). When I reviewed housing, Amsterdam wasn't significantly cheaper than LA, but it varied wildly based on where you wanted to live in both cities. LA apartments: 1200-4000USD, AMS Apartments: 930-3500EUR. The major plus in AMS being that you could live further from City Center and still reliably account for public transit. There's medical: free in AMS, $38/mo where I opted to work in LA. There's vacation time: 20-24days in AMS, flextime at my company. Etc. I mean, there are more comparisons to be made; but those were the prime metrics I was interested in.
- LunaSea 6y ago
  > AMS Apartments: 930-3500EUR Wait what?! What kind of apartments are we talking about here? > $38/mo where I opted to work in LA What does the medical insurance cover? How much did your car & car insurance cost in LA and did you need one in Amsterdam (probably not)?
  - deaddodo 6y ago
    > Wait what?! What kind of apartments are we talking about here? All of them, that was the range from the cheapest to the priciest. Idk why that seems unbelievable, I literally just looked at apartments in AMS now and the range appears the same. > What does the medical insurance cover? It’s full medical coverage via a PPO plan. $40 copay, $250 deductible, $1500 max out-of-pocket per year. > How much did your car & car insurance cost in LA and did you need one in Amsterdam (probably not)? I already owned a car, and would have sold it if I moved. Insurance is paid semi-annually but isn’t a major expense. Additionally, I included public transit as a benefit for Amsterdam in my original post, so I’m not sure what your point is. It really seems like you’re grasping at straws to justify the difference. The reasoning is obvious: the tech industry is massive, highly competitive and California is currently the global leader in that industry.
joyj2nd 6y ago
Sorry to break the news for you, but German salaries are 50% of US salaries (US salaries may vary by location). My first offer on the cost as my first job was 160k USD. In Germany they were backing out in Munich if I asked for 60k EUR. "Cost of living in Munich (one of Germany's most expensive cities) vs. SF.[1] And then Berlin (one of Germany's cheapest cities) vs. SF.[2]" I think these numbers are outdated. Especially Berlins rental and real estate costs are catching up quickly.
- playing_colours 6y ago
  Berlin rental costs are capped by law from some time ago, and the numbers are actual.
  - bacr 6y ago
    The point still stands. Rental caps mean it is very difficult to find a place to live in desired neighborhoods. Of course, you can find places outside the ring, but those would have been cheaper anyway! That’s not to say it isn’t sensible social policy. It is less disruptive to people who have lived there for a long time. But if you move for work, you will have to either pay a lot more than you would have in 2011, or get lucky.
    - fennecfoxen 6y ago
      I would hold that the better social policy is capping the cost of rent by allowing the construction of competitive housing stock. Either alternative is quite harmful: new housing is unattainable, either by defect of price or availability.
      - joyj2nd 6y ago
        Yeah, rent caps worked out in Lisbon extremely well. Not.
  - joyj2nd 6y ago
    Try to buy

RHSeeger 6y ago

I assumed what was meant was how generous it was compared to a normal severance package in the country. Ie, if a normal package would be 2 months in the US and this is 3.5, then saying it's like a 12 month package in Germany implies that a normal German package would be just under 7 months.

eanzenberg 6y ago

It’s worth making 4x in the states and paying less taxes to boot. Forget cost of living, only rent is more expensive so tack on an extra $2k a month if you don’t want to live with roommates.

concerned_user 6y ago
While you are young and healthy sure, but if something happens to you or when you get older, not so much.
- manigandham 6y ago
  Why not? Can't you purchase the same insurance, protections and care with 4x earnings and lower taxes?
  - LunaSea 6y ago
    Well for one you might but it will be incredibly expensive and probably still cover less than in the Netherlands. Also, the cost means that it is something you can only afford while you are still working. So if you do get hurt and can't work or get fired you lose that privilege. That is also a cost of opportunity that you lose by living in the US and that is not factored into the price of the insurance directly.
    - eanzenberg 6y ago
      This US healthcare meme is tiring and uninformed. A small minority have financial hardships due to medical emergencies here, and they for the most part aren’t poor, who get healthcare for free.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
    - manigandham 6y ago
      You don't have to keep working. Workers compensation, life insurance, long-term care policies all exist. There's really not much different in what's available, only who's responsible for it. In America, you earn and keep more and it's up to you to allocate properly (or not). In other countries, the government does it all for you to ensure there's a base level of support for everyone.
      - LunaSea 6y ago
        It's not a question of availability it's a question of price. If you need to pay for a very expensive medical insurance then you can only afford it while employed which you won't be if you have health issues that prevent you from doing so or get fired.
LunaSea 6y ago
Cars are also vastly more expensive and so is medical insurance.
- RhodesianHunter 6y ago
  Cars are NOT more expensive, especially not after you factor in the obscene cost of fuel in the EU. Healthcare is free at the vast majority of tech companies in the US.
2rsf 6y ago
> Forget cost of living You can forget it when you are young, healthy and single. Put a wife and couple of kids into the equation, a sickness here and there plus a small risk to become unemployed and everything changes.

deaddodo 6y ago

They're referring to specifically the tech industry. Which is, most assuredly, higher paid in California than anywhere else around the globe (in the mean, there are obvious exceptions). This comes from a person with EU citizenship who has shopped jobs/interviewed in multiple major cities in Europe; including Munich, Berlin, Amsterdam, London, Dublin and Prague. It's not insignificant. We're talking 150-220k USD/yr in LA vs 75-95k EUR/yr in Amsterdam (as an example, since it paid the greatest during my search) for a similar seniority role. That's before accounting for nominal tax differences (~37% LA vs ~38-42% AMS; which is significant at that delta). When I reviewed housing, Amsterdam wasn't significantly cheaper than LA, but it varied wildly based on where you wanted to live in both cities. LA apartments: 1200-4000USD, AMS Apartments: 930-3500EUR. The major plus in AMS being that you could live further from City Center and still reliably account for public transit. There's medical: free in AMS, $38/mo where I opted to work in LA. There's vacation time: 20-24days in AMS, flextime at my company. Etc. I mean, there are more comparisons to be made; but those were the prime metrics I was interested in.

LunaSea 6y ago
> AMS Apartments: 930-3500EUR Wait what?! What kind of apartments are we talking about here? > $38/mo where I opted to work in LA What does the medical insurance cover? How much did your car & car insurance cost in LA and did you need one in Amsterdam (probably not)?
- deaddodo 6y ago
  > Wait what?! What kind of apartments are we talking about here? All of them, that was the range from the cheapest to the priciest. Idk why that seems unbelievable, I literally just looked at apartments in AMS now and the range appears the same. > What does the medical insurance cover? It’s full medical coverage via a PPO plan. $40 copay, $250 deductible, $1500 max out-of-pocket per year. > How much did your car & car insurance cost in LA and did you need one in Amsterdam (probably not)? I already owned a car, and would have sold it if I moved. Insurance is paid semi-annually but isn’t a major expense. Additionally, I included public transit as a benefit for Amsterdam in my original post, so I’m not sure what your point is. It really seems like you’re grasping at straws to justify the difference. The reasoning is obvious: the tech industry is massive, highly competitive and California is currently the global leader in that industry.

joyj2nd 6y ago

Sorry to break the news for you, but German salaries are 50% of US salaries (US salaries may vary by location). My first offer on the cost as my first job was 160k USD. In Germany they were backing out in Munich if I asked for 60k EUR. "Cost of living in Munich (one of Germany's most expensive cities) vs. SF.[1] And then Berlin (one of Germany's cheapest cities) vs. SF.[2]" I think these numbers are outdated. Especially Berlins rental and real estate costs are catching up quickly.

playing_colours 6y ago
Berlin rental costs are capped by law from some time ago, and the numbers are actual.
- bacr 6y ago
  The point still stands. Rental caps mean it is very difficult to find a place to live in desired neighborhoods. Of course, you can find places outside the ring, but those would have been cheaper anyway! That’s not to say it isn’t sensible social policy. It is less disruptive to people who have lived there for a long time. But if you move for work, you will have to either pay a lot more than you would have in 2011, or get lucky.
  - fennecfoxen 6y ago
    I would hold that the better social policy is capping the cost of rent by allowing the construction of competitive housing stock. Either alternative is quite harmful: new housing is unattainable, either by defect of price or availability.
    - joyj2nd 6y ago
      Yeah, rent caps worked out in Lisbon extremely well. Not.
- joyj2nd 6y ago
  Try to buy