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worth noting that this severance is vastly more generous than you'd get from statutory redundancy in most (all?) countries. the UK is one week's pay for every

worth noting that this severance is vastly more generous than you'd get from statutory redundancy in most (all?) countries. the UK is one week's pay for every year, but with a maximum of £538/week and a maximum of 20 years for length service. given that a software engineer who's been at AirBnB for two years is going to get 16 weeks of pay and probably makes _at least_ 180k/year, they're probably getting around $55k.

Beldin 6y ago
NL: starting point is one month per year of employment. There's more detail to it, but that is the starting point. This compensation does not sound "vastly more generous", but not bad for those that were less than 5 years employed.
- _dps 6y ago
  This is in practice just a deferred salary scheme. Since the mandate attaches an unavoidable additional liability to every year of employment, that will get rolled into the total cost of employment by accountants. So yes, when you collect the deferred salary it feels generous. But you were getting less salary up until that point in order to make the system solvent. One may well prefer this arrangement, but one can't evaluate the generosity of the payment without also accounting for the cost that made it possible.
  - lonelappde 6y ago
    How is it unavoidable? If the employee leaves on their choice, is severance paid?
    - dgoldstein0 6y ago
      I think they mean unavoidable from the company's point of view - they can't make you quit, so when they hire you, they have to assume if they ever need to lay you off, they'll need to afford your severance.
      - _dps 6y ago
        Yes — I was slightly incomplete in my description, but you are exactly correct about what I meant. Company liabilities include things you are obligated to pay under uncertain future circumstances, so accountants have to make sure that such liabilities can be handled if they ever arise.
- 2019-nCoV 6y ago
  You'd be in the top 5% of software engineers in Europe if you pull >$55k after tax ANNUALLY. Let alone as a parting gift.
  - zxcmx 6y ago
    I think European dev market is a lot more complex than that; if you work in Zurich or London, do contracting, work for a major bank etc then the market is way different for you than if you do (say) PHP as an employee of a non-software company in Berlin. The baseline is decently middle class with a solid safety net but there's a lot more room at the top than you're making out IMHO. As always, to make cash as a "working" dev you have to get as close as you can to a gigantic money funnel of some sort. The main difference from the U.S. is that there are fewer and different money fountains, especially missing unicorn and VC money. Finance, FAANG outposts and doing specialised things for huge real-economy companies still pay well.
    - 2019-nCoV 6y ago
      Zurich and London top out at $100k, any more and we're talking managerial responsibilities. Compared to SF or SEA they are only paying ~25% market rate. The safety net argument has no legs. Australia and Canada both have social benefits that far exceed the majority of EU nations, yet pre-pandemic there was no shortage of $150k+ dev roles.
      - vhartman 6y ago
        Zurich does definitely not top out at 100k. Depending on your negotiation skills, you'll start at about 120-140k in the big tech companies, around 120k in data science consulting, 120k for data science in banks, 80-100k at the smaller software companies.
        2019-nCoV 6y ago
        The number of European devs making >$100k is a fraction of a percent. Your numbers tell the story — the pinnacle of the entire European continent is still only paying 25% comparable US market rate, and 60% comparable AU/CA rate. In a city more expensive than SF.
jeromegv 6y ago
This one is more generous, true, but the real question is, because the employer decides, how likely it is to be better than European countries that have the same standard for every employee.

Beldin 6y ago

NL: starting point is one month per year of employment. There's more detail to it, but that is the starting point. This compensation does not sound "vastly more generous", but not bad for those that were less than 5 years employed.

_dps 6y ago
This is in practice just a deferred salary scheme. Since the mandate attaches an unavoidable additional liability to every year of employment, that will get rolled into the total cost of employment by accountants. So yes, when you collect the deferred salary it feels generous. But you were getting less salary up until that point in order to make the system solvent. One may well prefer this arrangement, but one can't evaluate the generosity of the payment without also accounting for the cost that made it possible.
- lonelappde 6y ago
  How is it unavoidable? If the employee leaves on their choice, is severance paid?
  - dgoldstein0 6y ago
    I think they mean unavoidable from the company's point of view - they can't make you quit, so when they hire you, they have to assume if they ever need to lay you off, they'll need to afford your severance.
    - _dps 6y ago
      Yes — I was slightly incomplete in my description, but you are exactly correct about what I meant. Company liabilities include things you are obligated to pay under uncertain future circumstances, so accountants have to make sure that such liabilities can be handled if they ever arise.
2019-nCoV 6y ago
You'd be in the top 5% of software engineers in Europe if you pull >$55k after tax ANNUALLY. Let alone as a parting gift.
- zxcmx 6y ago
  I think European dev market is a lot more complex than that; if you work in Zurich or London, do contracting, work for a major bank etc then the market is way different for you than if you do (say) PHP as an employee of a non-software company in Berlin. The baseline is decently middle class with a solid safety net but there's a lot more room at the top than you're making out IMHO. As always, to make cash as a "working" dev you have to get as close as you can to a gigantic money funnel of some sort. The main difference from the U.S. is that there are fewer and different money fountains, especially missing unicorn and VC money. Finance, FAANG outposts and doing specialised things for huge real-economy companies still pay well.
  - 2019-nCoV 6y ago
    Zurich and London top out at $100k, any more and we're talking managerial responsibilities. Compared to SF or SEA they are only paying ~25% market rate. The safety net argument has no legs. Australia and Canada both have social benefits that far exceed the majority of EU nations, yet pre-pandemic there was no shortage of $150k+ dev roles.
    - vhartman 6y ago
      Zurich does definitely not top out at 100k. Depending on your negotiation skills, you'll start at about 120-140k in the big tech companies, around 120k in data science consulting, 120k for data science in banks, 80-100k at the smaller software companies.
      - 2019-nCoV 6y ago
        The number of European devs making >$100k is a fraction of a percent. Your numbers tell the story — the pinnacle of the entire European continent is still only paying 25% comparable US market rate, and 60% comparable AU/CA rate. In a city more expensive than SF.

jeromegv 6y ago

This one is more generous, true, but the real question is, because the employer decides, how likely it is to be better than European countries that have the same standard for every employee.