3 ms·

It is generous by US standards, but it's just nice for many other western countries, where the standard is a few months of salary, or e.g. one month salary for

It is generous by US standards, but it's just nice for many other western countries, where the standard is a few months of salary, or e.g. one month salary for each year worked (that is, if you had worked for the company for 5 years, you get at least 5 months salary on termination -- Israel mandates that one by law, for example, and NOT paying it is considered a criminal violation performed by the employer)

tjs8rj 7y ago
Don't get the idea that those are free lunches. They are factored as an expected value in your total compensation for sure. It's part of the reason that median incomes in the US are much higher than Europe and everywhere else: less benefits requires higher cash compensation for the same marginal product.
- beagle3 7y ago
  There are no free lunches. But do note that this is also factored in into AirBNB's/Google/FB/IBMs/Microsoft's compensation as well; They could have paid everyone more and let them save for themselves, but -- like healthcare -- factor it into the "employer's cost" of which "visible" salary+RSU+ISO+bonus is only a part (70-90% depending on many factors). The main difference is that in the US it is optional, so only the well-to-do employers and only at good-enough-time do it -- so the expected costs are weighted by the probability they will do them (say, 30% - I'm sure they have a good idea) -- and they can bail out at the last second if conditions are unfavorable for them to do that. In Europe the systems mostly mandate it. The difference is more striking with respect to pensions paid on retirement - they are "optional" for the employer in the sense that they could (and are) discharged in bankruptcy, meaning that after 40 years of employment, one bankruptcy event (we'll see many after the lockdown) is all it takes to deny those payments. There are no free lunches, indeed - the cost of higher US salaries are unpredictable (and often unfavorable) future cash flows for employees -- and only in some industries are the salaries high enough to actually allow the employees to prepare for that. edit: I've heard someone describe these forcefully-ensured severance and retirement funds as "denying one the ability to steal from their future selves". I think that's an apt description of what it is.
- chillacy 7y ago
  To put some numbers on that, AirBNB compensation is no joke. They're paying senior engineers 200k+ base and nearly 200k stock. https://www.levels.fyi/SE/Airbnb https://www.levels.fyi/SE/Airbnb I have (regrettably) not found many companies in other countries which pay that well, except maybe Google Zurich, which is hard to get in I hear.
  - beagle3 7y ago
    Link 404s for me. Do you know how many of their employees are in that range? And especially how many of those being let go are in that range?
    - chillacy 7y ago
      Whoops, corrected: https://www.levels.fyi/?compare=Airbnb&track=Software%20Engineer https://www.levels.fyi/?compare=Airbnb&track=Software%20Engi... I don't know specific numbers at AirBNB or their layoff details but you would hit the equivalent L5 at other large bay area companies in about 5 or 6 years.
beagle3 7y ago
Wow. This is my comment most downvoted in history, and I would really appreciate an explanation why from someone who understands why (no hard feelings, I don't care about internet/brownie points, but the reason I'm here on HN is to learn and downvotes only help me figure out that someone thinks I'm wrong, not why). If you think this is factually wrong, please point out why. If you think it's stupid (even though it is not factually wrong), I would also appreciate an explanation why.
- jlbnjmn 7y ago
  In Germany, if an employee gets laid off after 2 years, they would get 50% monthly salary times number of years worked, so 1 months pay. That means the Airbnb severance package is equivalent to a 6+ year employee, for every employee getting laid off. That's generous by German standards, isn't it? Then when you consider the median income for a software engineer in Germany is $54k, whereas in the USA it's $92k, and at Airbnb it's $200k+, that means that an engineer being laid off from Airbnb could be receiving the median annual income of a software engineer in Germany as severance, not including stock. That, to me, is generous. https://www.howtogermany.com/pages/termination-employment-contract.html https://www.howtogermany.com/pages/termination-employment-co...
  - beagle3 7y ago
    In Denmark according to GlassDoor [0], Avg developer salary is 530K DKK/yr =~ $76K ; The policy for severance months[1] is sliding, but is front loaded and starts at with 1m severance for 5m worked, sliding down to 6m severance of >9years with a few more stops. In Israel, according to GlassDoor [2], the avg pay for a software developer is 253K ILS =~ $72K USD; severance policy is 1m severance for every 1y worked. When I was employing people in the UK, salaries were significantly higher than those paid in Israel or Denmark, though they are lower (~$68k/year) now that the GBP lost so much of its value (and ... I haven't employed anyone in the UK for more than a decade; not sure how different it is now) I'm not familiar with the german market, but - $75K vs. $92K is 20% difference, which from my experience is very consistent, including at the high end (Amazon in Israel is offering top engineers $300K-$350K/yr for example, and I would guess FB, Goog, MSFT are doing that as well, "regular" senior engineers at the $150K level). And it's important that this severance pay is not, in any way, dependent on benevolence, generosity, or even proper management in most cases -- employers are forced fund governmenta-approved-and-regulated severance funds on a monthly basis, so bankruptcy doesn't rob the employee. McDonald's employees get the same arrangement, although some companies (mostly finance and high tech) are much more generous than that. [0] https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/copenhagen-software-developer-salary-SRCH_IL.0,10_IM958_KO11,29.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/copenhagen-software-devel... [1] https://www.eurofound.europa.eu/observatories/emcc/erm/legislation/denmark-severance-payredundancy-compensation https://www.eurofound.europa.eu/observatories/emcc/erm/legis... [2] https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/tel-aviv-yafo-software-engineer-salary-SRCH_IL.0,13_IM1002_KO14,31.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/tel-aviv-yafo-software-en... - note, this is for Tel-Aviv but payscale.com gives a similar number for the entire country. p.s. Israel is not actually in Europe - it's in Asia (very close to North Africa and relatively close to Southern Europe). But from a legal and cultural perspective, Israel is closest to being European -- specifically, Irsaeli Laws were forked from British Laws in 1948.
ves 7y ago
My understanding is that tech jobs also pay a lot more (relatively) in the US than most everywhere else in the west.
- beagle3 7y ago
  That depends on your definition of “a lot”. About 20-25% more than Dennark and Israel and the UK (see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23089392; https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23089392; the parent of that post says it’s 70% more than Germany). 20% difference is not little, but it is within the differences of PPP and average cost of living, so it’s not clear whether or not it’s more - e.g. food is cheaper in the us but medical services are much more expensive, so comparing how far money goes depends on your conditions.

tjs8rj 7y ago

Don't get the idea that those are free lunches. They are factored as an expected value in your total compensation for sure. It's part of the reason that median incomes in the US are much higher than Europe and everywhere else: less benefits requires higher cash compensation for the same marginal product.

beagle3 7y ago
There are no free lunches. But do note that this is also factored in into AirBNB's/Google/FB/IBMs/Microsoft's compensation as well; They could have paid everyone more and let them save for themselves, but -- like healthcare -- factor it into the "employer's cost" of which "visible" salary+RSU+ISO+bonus is only a part (70-90% depending on many factors). The main difference is that in the US it is optional, so only the well-to-do employers and only at good-enough-time do it -- so the expected costs are weighted by the probability they will do them (say, 30% - I'm sure they have a good idea) -- and they can bail out at the last second if conditions are unfavorable for them to do that. In Europe the systems mostly mandate it. The difference is more striking with respect to pensions paid on retirement - they are "optional" for the employer in the sense that they could (and are) discharged in bankruptcy, meaning that after 40 years of employment, one bankruptcy event (we'll see many after the lockdown) is all it takes to deny those payments. There are no free lunches, indeed - the cost of higher US salaries are unpredictable (and often unfavorable) future cash flows for employees -- and only in some industries are the salaries high enough to actually allow the employees to prepare for that. edit: I've heard someone describe these forcefully-ensured severance and retirement funds as "denying one the ability to steal from their future selves". I think that's an apt description of what it is.
chillacy 7y ago
To put some numbers on that, AirBNB compensation is no joke. They're paying senior engineers 200k+ base and nearly 200k stock. https://www.levels.fyi/SE/Airbnb https://www.levels.fyi/SE/Airbnb I have (regrettably) not found many companies in other countries which pay that well, except maybe Google Zurich, which is hard to get in I hear.
- beagle3 7y ago
  Link 404s for me. Do you know how many of their employees are in that range? And especially how many of those being let go are in that range?
  - chillacy 7y ago
    Whoops, corrected: https://www.levels.fyi/?compare=Airbnb&track=Software%20Engineer https://www.levels.fyi/?compare=Airbnb&track=Software%20Engi... I don't know specific numbers at AirBNB or their layoff details but you would hit the equivalent L5 at other large bay area companies in about 5 or 6 years.

beagle3 7y ago

Wow. This is my comment most downvoted in history, and I would really appreciate an explanation why from someone who understands why (no hard feelings, I don't care about internet/brownie points, but the reason I'm here on HN is to learn and downvotes only help me figure out that someone thinks I'm wrong, not why). If you think this is factually wrong, please point out why. If you think it's stupid (even though it is not factually wrong), I would also appreciate an explanation why.

jlbnjmn 7y ago
In Germany, if an employee gets laid off after 2 years, they would get 50% monthly salary times number of years worked, so 1 months pay. That means the Airbnb severance package is equivalent to a 6+ year employee, for every employee getting laid off. That's generous by German standards, isn't it? Then when you consider the median income for a software engineer in Germany is $54k, whereas in the USA it's $92k, and at Airbnb it's $200k+, that means that an engineer being laid off from Airbnb could be receiving the median annual income of a software engineer in Germany as severance, not including stock. That, to me, is generous. https://www.howtogermany.com/pages/termination-employment-contract.html https://www.howtogermany.com/pages/termination-employment-co...
- beagle3 7y ago
  In Denmark according to GlassDoor [0], Avg developer salary is 530K DKK/yr =~ $76K ; The policy for severance months[1] is sliding, but is front loaded and starts at with 1m severance for 5m worked, sliding down to 6m severance of >9years with a few more stops. In Israel, according to GlassDoor [2], the avg pay for a software developer is 253K ILS =~ $72K USD; severance policy is 1m severance for every 1y worked. When I was employing people in the UK, salaries were significantly higher than those paid in Israel or Denmark, though they are lower (~$68k/year) now that the GBP lost so much of its value (and ... I haven't employed anyone in the UK for more than a decade; not sure how different it is now) I'm not familiar with the german market, but - $75K vs. $92K is 20% difference, which from my experience is very consistent, including at the high end (Amazon in Israel is offering top engineers $300K-$350K/yr for example, and I would guess FB, Goog, MSFT are doing that as well, "regular" senior engineers at the $150K level). And it's important that this severance pay is not, in any way, dependent on benevolence, generosity, or even proper management in most cases -- employers are forced fund governmenta-approved-and-regulated severance funds on a monthly basis, so bankruptcy doesn't rob the employee. McDonald's employees get the same arrangement, although some companies (mostly finance and high tech) are much more generous than that. [0] https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/copenhagen-software-developer-salary-SRCH_IL.0,10_IM958_KO11,29.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/copenhagen-software-devel... [1] https://www.eurofound.europa.eu/observatories/emcc/erm/legislation/denmark-severance-payredundancy-compensation https://www.eurofound.europa.eu/observatories/emcc/erm/legis... [2] https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/tel-aviv-yafo-software-engineer-salary-SRCH_IL.0,13_IM1002_KO14,31.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/tel-aviv-yafo-software-en... - note, this is for Tel-Aviv but payscale.com gives a similar number for the entire country. p.s. Israel is not actually in Europe - it's in Asia (very close to North Africa and relatively close to Southern Europe). But from a legal and cultural perspective, Israel is closest to being European -- specifically, Irsaeli Laws were forked from British Laws in 1948.

ves 7y ago

My understanding is that tech jobs also pay a lot more (relatively) in the US than most everywhere else in the west.

beagle3 7y ago
That depends on your definition of “a lot”. About 20-25% more than Dennark and Israel and the UK (see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23089392; https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23089392; the parent of that post says it’s 70% more than Germany). 20% difference is not little, but it is within the differences of PPP and average cost of living, so it’s not clear whether or not it’s more - e.g. food is cheaper in the us but medical services are much more expensive, so comparing how far money goes depends on your conditions.