7 ms·

I don't buy into this "they must lift themselves up by their bootstraps" narrative. It is often an easy excuse for people complicit in a situation to avoid wor

by slg 7y ago

I don't buy into this "they must lift themselves up by their bootstraps" narrative. It is often an easy excuse for people complicit in a situation to avoid working towards helping the more vulnerable. There is zero reason this type of action needs to originate with warehouse workers. Do you think it would be any less effective if the tech workers at Amazon organized a strike similar to the one you are suggesting the warehouse workers execute? There are numerous reasons why those tech workers are in a better position to actually strike since they have more job security, generally have more financial security, and would likely have an easier time finding a new job if Amazon retaliated.

tehjoker 7y ago
This is true, a solidarity strike by tech workers would absolutely make an FC action more effective and durable. However, how can striking SWE effectively bargain for other people? They don't have the same understanding of FC workers material needs. FC workers must take the lead in fighting for themselves, but other workers can ally with and assist them. SWEs beginning a solidarity strike could show FC workers that resistance is possible. It would be crucial to network with FC organizers to ensure the solidarity strike is achieving FC workers' goals. This is why labor struggles are so difficult. The most powerful movers are the most exploited and dispossessed people, but they don't want to risk what little they have. They are the most powerful because they control the actual production of the company, without them management is helpless. At least in America, I don't want to make a more general claim as people are willing to strike over much less in other countries due to the strength of the labor movement, it's really only when people have nothing left to lose do they fight. We can talk to people in that position, we can discuss how we can support them, but ultimately it's their decision whether to fight or not. EDIT: I'd say my advice to the OP is the most important thing you can do is to network labor organizers (meaning anyone willing to fight for each other, not just with professional unions) between SWEs and FC workers. You should talk regularly and plan how to achieve a series of goals bearing in mind that the FC workers should be in the driver's seat on most decisions. Your goal is to build worker solidarity and worker power independent of management.
- tracker1 7y ago
  If one is going to be an organizer, do so out of band, under psuedonym for organizational purposes... use a foreign registrar, and devices not tied to your personal identity logged into any AWS resources. I would setup a site (behind registration privacy), registered with a foreign/eu registrar, and probably hosted in the EU. Get a cheap low end/burner phone for any text/organizing. Encourage others to work from non-primary devices as much as possible. This is to minimize backlash. Being an organizer is the single biggest risk there is here. Keeping your identity secret and working to bring people across the organization together will expose you otherwise. At this point, AWS has the resources of many governments and will be working to expose you. This is just my $.02, but I agree... the boots on the ground have to protest for themselves. Keep the discussion on point to the actual work conditions, and less about ideology, you will lose support if you don't keep the focus and control the narrative.
  - tehjoker 7y ago
    Just a note on ideology: ideologies come from a systematic rationalization of the material interests of some group. If you find an ideological clash, it's because your material interests probably are in conflict with someone else's. This is an excellent reason to make sure FC workers are in the driver's seat on decisions so that their material interests are expressed forcefully.
- thayne 7y ago
  > However, how can striking SWE effectively bargain for other people? It seems like it should be possible, if FC workers are involved, for SWEs that have the means to go without pay for a while, and greater financial leverage to strike on behalf of FC workers who are more vulnerable, and the FC workers determine the terms. Not that organizing something like that would be easy.
- jnbiche 7y ago
  > The most powerful movers are the most exploited and dispossessed people, but they don't want to risk what little they have. By that logic, then technical folks, particularly devops people, are in a very strong role to make change. AWS is a very significant portion of Amazon's profits, and it will crumble to the ground if they mass strike just as much as Amazon's retail sector will crumble if the FC workers mass strike. You think AWS can maintain 3+ 9s with 50%+ of their operations people striking? Look at what simply shifting to remote work has done to Github uptime over the past month: 99.6% after months of 3+ 9s. Their uptime would likely stop dropping quickly, particularly if strikes extended into weeks.
smoe 7y ago
Actually, one of the guiding and most famous principles of the working class movement since the mid 19th century in Europe was/is: "That the emancipation of the working classes must be conquered by the working classes themselves." So I wouldn't just discard it as an excuse to not do anything. I'm not super well versed in the details, but I think the main point was, that only self-emancipation really frees one from foreign rule and oppression. That does not mean, that you can't do anything, and they have do everything themselves. But you have to be aware that your view of what is best for them, might differ from their view of what is best. While I agree that a tech worker strike and such is more impactful, I would consider not just asking the typical people that frequent hacker news how to help warehouse workers, but also, you know, warehouse workers. Edit: for another example, I might be perfectly willing to put my job on the line for such a cause. But with my actions do I endanger someone else's job who can not afford losing it? If so I should not just storm ahead without coordination.
- slg 7y ago
  To be clear, I am not saying the warehouse workers should not be involved. I said action doesn't have to originate with them. They deserve a seat at the bargaining table and other groups shouldn't resort to paternalism. However warehouse workers shouldn't be the only people with any responsibility to get everyone to the bargaining table and they certainly aren't the only group who can speed up that process.
  - smoe 7y ago
    I think we completely agree. Discussion like this, just reminded me that the "left" worldwide has somehow managed to loose huge swaths or the entire support of the working class in the last decades and are now often considered ivory tower elitists. I think it is good to remind oneself, that if you want to help, you should sit down and listen to the people you want to help, and make sure that your action can actually have tangible impact and are not just to make yourself feel better.
0x262d 7y ago
I posted a reply to my own comment elaborating on this a bit. I definitely agree that OP should get active and try to help this process. But I also think that expecting success for warehouse workers short of their own militant organization is a mistake and that that's the most important angle to try to help, if that makes sense.

by slg 7y ago

tehjoker 7y ago

This is true, a solidarity strike by tech workers would absolutely make an FC action more effective and durable. However, how can striking SWE effectively bargain for other people? They don't have the same understanding of FC workers material needs. FC workers must take the lead in fighting for themselves, but other workers can ally with and assist them. SWEs beginning a solidarity strike could show FC workers that resistance is possible. It would be crucial to network with FC organizers to ensure the solidarity strike is achieving FC workers' goals. This is why labor struggles are so difficult. The most powerful movers are the most exploited and dispossessed people, but they don't want to risk what little they have. They are the most powerful because they control the actual production of the company, without them management is helpless. At least in America, I don't want to make a more general claim as people are willing to strike over much less in other countries due to the strength of the labor movement, it's really only when people have nothing left to lose do they fight. We can talk to people in that position, we can discuss how we can support them, but ultimately it's their decision whether to fight or not. EDIT: I'd say my advice to the OP is the most important thing you can do is to network labor organizers (meaning anyone willing to fight for each other, not just with professional unions) between SWEs and FC workers. You should talk regularly and plan how to achieve a series of goals bearing in mind that the FC workers should be in the driver's seat on most decisions. Your goal is to build worker solidarity and worker power independent of management.

tracker1 7y ago
If one is going to be an organizer, do so out of band, under psuedonym for organizational purposes... use a foreign registrar, and devices not tied to your personal identity logged into any AWS resources. I would setup a site (behind registration privacy), registered with a foreign/eu registrar, and probably hosted in the EU. Get a cheap low end/burner phone for any text/organizing. Encourage others to work from non-primary devices as much as possible. This is to minimize backlash. Being an organizer is the single biggest risk there is here. Keeping your identity secret and working to bring people across the organization together will expose you otherwise. At this point, AWS has the resources of many governments and will be working to expose you. This is just my $.02, but I agree... the boots on the ground have to protest for themselves. Keep the discussion on point to the actual work conditions, and less about ideology, you will lose support if you don't keep the focus and control the narrative.
- tehjoker 7y ago
  Just a note on ideology: ideologies come from a systematic rationalization of the material interests of some group. If you find an ideological clash, it's because your material interests probably are in conflict with someone else's. This is an excellent reason to make sure FC workers are in the driver's seat on decisions so that their material interests are expressed forcefully.
thayne 7y ago
> However, how can striking SWE effectively bargain for other people? It seems like it should be possible, if FC workers are involved, for SWEs that have the means to go without pay for a while, and greater financial leverage to strike on behalf of FC workers who are more vulnerable, and the FC workers determine the terms. Not that organizing something like that would be easy.
jnbiche 7y ago
> The most powerful movers are the most exploited and dispossessed people, but they don't want to risk what little they have. By that logic, then technical folks, particularly devops people, are in a very strong role to make change. AWS is a very significant portion of Amazon's profits, and it will crumble to the ground if they mass strike just as much as Amazon's retail sector will crumble if the FC workers mass strike. You think AWS can maintain 3+ 9s with 50%+ of their operations people striking? Look at what simply shifting to remote work has done to Github uptime over the past month: 99.6% after months of 3+ 9s. Their uptime would likely stop dropping quickly, particularly if strikes extended into weeks.

smoe 7y ago

Actually, one of the guiding and most famous principles of the working class movement since the mid 19th century in Europe was/is: "That the emancipation of the working classes must be conquered by the working classes themselves." So I wouldn't just discard it as an excuse to not do anything. I'm not super well versed in the details, but I think the main point was, that only self-emancipation really frees one from foreign rule and oppression. That does not mean, that you can't do anything, and they have do everything themselves. But you have to be aware that your view of what is best for them, might differ from their view of what is best. While I agree that a tech worker strike and such is more impactful, I would consider not just asking the typical people that frequent hacker news how to help warehouse workers, but also, you know, warehouse workers. Edit: for another example, I might be perfectly willing to put my job on the line for such a cause. But with my actions do I endanger someone else's job who can not afford losing it? If so I should not just storm ahead without coordination.

slg 7y ago
To be clear, I am not saying the warehouse workers should not be involved. I said action doesn't have to originate with them. They deserve a seat at the bargaining table and other groups shouldn't resort to paternalism. However warehouse workers shouldn't be the only people with any responsibility to get everyone to the bargaining table and they certainly aren't the only group who can speed up that process.
- smoe 7y ago
  I think we completely agree. Discussion like this, just reminded me that the "left" worldwide has somehow managed to loose huge swaths or the entire support of the working class in the last decades and are now often considered ivory tower elitists. I think it is good to remind oneself, that if you want to help, you should sit down and listen to the people you want to help, and make sure that your action can actually have tangible impact and are not just to make yourself feel better.

0x262d 7y ago

I posted a reply to my own comment elaborating on this a bit. I definitely agree that OP should get active and try to help this process. But I also think that expecting success for warehouse workers short of their own militant organization is a mistake and that that's the most important angle to try to help, if that makes sense.