7 ms·

Honestly, you have pretty little real leverage. Warehouse workers are going to have to form a union and threaten to really shut down amazon's profits, in order

by 0x262d 6y ago

Honestly, you have pretty little real leverage. Warehouse workers are going to have to form a union and threaten to really shut down amazon's profits, in order to defeat these profit-motivated outrages. It's always been like this. People have to self-emancipate. To aid this you can help promote support for unionizing and other related things. But that's fairly secondary. I think using your position as an employee to call out Amazon's abuses can be a good way to direct media attention but without worker power, attention on its own doesn't actually do anything. But Amazon firing its employees has given them a lot of bad press. If it happens to you it might be a good thing politically. That does suck though, if you can't afford it be careful. Related to all of these topics I want to plug https://www.taxamazon.net/about https://www.taxamazon.net/about, which doesn't solve the issue of warehouse conditions but does help address one other externality of Amazon's relentless drive for profits at the expense of all other issues. Raising consciousness around their tax-dodging helps people realize their worker relations are terrible and vice versa, and passing this ballot initiative will do a lot of good on its own. Edit: do get plugged in to Tech Workers’ Coalition if you aren’t. I just wanted to be sober about the challenges and opposition warehouse workers face and the necessary strategy for victory.

throwlaplace 6y ago
>Honestly, you have pretty little real leverage. Warehouse workers are going to have to form a union and threaten to really shut down amazon's profits The way that unions fought capital in the early 20th was they went on strike and remained on strike until capital conceded to demands or they were shutdown by "detective agencies" ie strike breakers. Staying on strike cost money - food, rent for strikers. National unions like the wobblies and AFL-CIO would funnel national dues to locals. Are there even really national unions anymore? Personally I would donate money to Amazon workers striking if there were a call for it even though I wouldn't be in their hypothetical union. Edit: lol downvotes from shareholders triggered by the word "strike"
- 0x262d 6y ago
  Yeah that's absolutely important, and donations like that have been important for keeping strikes going. But unfortunately we're not at that point yet.
  - throwlaplace 6y ago
    But we never will be because the professional/middle class is a buffer between labor and capital right? That's the beauty of divisive class politics that pits the middle class against the working class - we're discouraged from identifying with working class problems so that we don't support them in their fight.
    - gvjddbnvdrbv 6y ago
      Compared to the upper upper class we are all working class. The sooner we realise it the better.
      - int_19h 6y ago
        The whole upper/middle/... arrangement is confusing the issue. IMO, we should rather be talking about the worker class and the rentier class, defined solely by the proportion of their earned vs unearned income. Basically, if you can lose a job and still pay your living expenses, then you're in the rentier class. If you have to sell your labor to pay your bills, you're a worker - even if you sell it for a lot of money.
        wutbrodo 6y ago
        > If you have to sell your labor to pay your bills, you're a worker - even if you sell it for a lot of money. There are useful distinctions even between this though. What Piketty refers to as the "patrimonial middle class" has significant assets during and at the end of their life, but still needs to sell their labor to pay their bills. This distinction aligns more closely with the traditional lower/upper/middle arrangement (they'd be upper-middle class). This article[1] (unfortunately paywalled if you don't have an Economist subscription) covers it pretty well, but it's pretty well-trod ground at this point: there's a substantial chunk of the population that isn't rentier/leisure class, but often aligns with them politically, and your proposal's elision of this group means it's missing an important dynamic in class politics. [1] https://www.economist.com/books-and-arts/2017/06/29/why-the-20-and-not-the-1-are-the-real-problem https://www.economist.com/books-and-arts/2017/06/29/why-the-...
- vcarl 6y ago
  One significant change since that era of unionization is that programmers can't actually shut down the business with a strike. If programmers stop working, that doesn't actually directly impact revenue—if a group of factory, warehouse, or service workers strike, then the business halts until the strike is resolved. SRE/Ops could take down revenue generation, but that starts to be something with legal liability. Laws prevent businesses from hiring new workers to break a strike, but if you sabotage the code, then my understanding is that there could be criminal charges against you. That's not really relevant in the context of Amazon's _warehouse_ workers unionizing, but I think it's an interesting constraint for us as software developers.
  - throwlaplace 6y ago
    >a group of factory, warehouse, or service workers strike, then the business halts until the strike is resolved Well indeed I am suggesting a warehouse worker that we as software engineers support financially
  - omeze 6y ago
    I don’t work at AWS bit I think youre being a bit optimistic about the level of automation most services have. If there are no SREs present for a month, things will break at even the most sophisticated tech shops.
    - vcarl 6y ago
      I meant this as a commentary on the strike as a tactic for tech workers generally. SREs and Ops are the teams that seem most able to effectively use a strike to disrupt revenue, to be sure. Many services, though, would be able to operate for months or longer without intervention.
  - throwaway17_17 6y ago
    Your statement that ‘Laws prevent businesses from hiring new workers to break a strike’ is not legally correct. The Mackay Doctrine (from the US Supreme Court in NLRB V Mackay) explicitly formulates the right of employers to hire replacement workers. There are some requirements on this action by employers but just wanted to get the legal facts out there.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- int_19h 6y ago
  IWW is still around, and even unionizing some shops.
_bxg1 6y ago
> without worker power, attention on its own doesn't actually do anything I don't think this is true. With enough bad press, it starts to make a difference both on the consumer side and the hiring side. I've turned down Amazon recruiters solely based on ethics before, and I haven't held an Amazon Prime membership in years. And I know others who avoid using Amazon unless they really have no other option.
- 0x262d 6y ago
  I agree this is a real effect - to some degree. But the degree to which it causes them to reform is the level of bad press/taking shortcuts which optimizes profit. Not abusing their workers in factories, well, that's a lot of workers and a lot of money; so far they've found it more profitable to try to buy good press. How long will that continue? I'm not sure, but probably a long time. I would caution people to not rely on that given that Amazon has been known to be pretty bad for quite a while with little reform. Rather than finding some optimum on Amazon's terms, if its employees are sufficiently organized they can force their own terms, although their ability to do that does depend to some degree on public perception of it.
  - _bxg1 6y ago
    I'm just saying it doesn't have to be either/or. Bad press has a real, if currently small, effect. Organization could have a bigger effect but is also harder to accomplish. All avenues should be explored.
cfqycwz 6y ago
> Warehouse workers are going to have to form a union and threaten to really shut down amazon's profits, in order to defeat these profit-motivated outrages. It's always been like this. People have to self-emancipate. I agree with this! However, it would be very nice if Amazon engineers were organized as well. I know CWA has an ongoing effort to organize tech workers. They're a pretty good union--still what I'd call a "business union," but one of the better ones that understands their power comes from being organized enough to shove the boss around a little. https://www.code-cwa.org/ https://www.code-cwa.org/
slg 6y ago
I don't buy into this "they must lift themselves up by their bootstraps" narrative. It is often an easy excuse for people complicit in a situation to avoid working towards helping the more vulnerable. There is zero reason this type of action needs to originate with warehouse workers. Do you think it would be any less effective if the tech workers at Amazon organized a strike similar to the one you are suggesting the warehouse workers execute? There are numerous reasons why those tech workers are in a better position to actually strike since they have more job security, generally have more financial security, and would likely have an easier time finding a new job if Amazon retaliated.
- tehjoker 6y ago
  This is true, a solidarity strike by tech workers would absolutely make an FC action more effective and durable. However, how can striking SWE effectively bargain for other people? They don't have the same understanding of FC workers material needs. FC workers must take the lead in fighting for themselves, but other workers can ally with and assist them. SWEs beginning a solidarity strike could show FC workers that resistance is possible. It would be crucial to network with FC organizers to ensure the solidarity strike is achieving FC workers' goals. This is why labor struggles are so difficult. The most powerful movers are the most exploited and dispossessed people, but they don't want to risk what little they have. They are the most powerful because they control the actual production of the company, without them management is helpless. At least in America, I don't want to make a more general claim as people are willing to strike over much less in other countries due to the strength of the labor movement, it's really only when people have nothing left to lose do they fight. We can talk to people in that position, we can discuss how we can support them, but ultimately it's their decision whether to fight or not. EDIT: I'd say my advice to the OP is the most important thing you can do is to network labor organizers (meaning anyone willing to fight for each other, not just with professional unions) between SWEs and FC workers. You should talk regularly and plan how to achieve a series of goals bearing in mind that the FC workers should be in the driver's seat on most decisions. Your goal is to build worker solidarity and worker power independent of management.
  - tracker1 6y ago
0x262d 6y ago
I'm starting to reassess my comment. On some level it's true, worker organization is absolutely key and there's no way around that. But it's also important to focus more on what you (the OP) can do. I think that as an Amazon employee, you have somewhat more attention and credibility in public perception, and strategically using your position to publicly criticize them and support worker organization efforts could be fruitful. But it might get you fired. Trying to build support for unionization at work is good, but, legal or not, that will get you fired if you're caught. Getting involved with Tech Workers' Coalition is good, although their actions are limited. I think the best thing you can do is get fully involved in building the broader political, working-class movement against corporate predatory behavior, which I believe is inherent to capitalism. That is part of the purpose of the Tax Amazon campaign in Seattle. If you're here and interested in speaking about that please get in touch on social media. So, get involved with working class organization (you are a member of the working class after all) is a more nuanced answer. Sorry for the initial overemphasis on class struggle fatalism.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

by 0x262d 6y ago

throwlaplace 6y ago

>Honestly, you have pretty little real leverage. Warehouse workers are going to have to form a union and threaten to really shut down amazon's profits The way that unions fought capital in the early 20th was they went on strike and remained on strike until capital conceded to demands or they were shutdown by "detective agencies" ie strike breakers. Staying on strike cost money - food, rent for strikers. National unions like the wobblies and AFL-CIO would funnel national dues to locals. Are there even really national unions anymore? Personally I would donate money to Amazon workers striking if there were a call for it even though I wouldn't be in their hypothetical union. Edit: lol downvotes from shareholders triggered by the word "strike"

0x262d 6y ago
Yeah that's absolutely important, and donations like that have been important for keeping strikes going. But unfortunately we're not at that point yet.
- throwlaplace 6y ago
  But we never will be because the professional/middle class is a buffer between labor and capital right? That's the beauty of divisive class politics that pits the middle class against the working class - we're discouraged from identifying with working class problems so that we don't support them in their fight.
  - gvjddbnvdrbv 6y ago
    Compared to the upper upper class we are all working class. The sooner we realise it the better.
    - int_19h 6y ago
      The whole upper/middle/... arrangement is confusing the issue. IMO, we should rather be talking about the worker class and the rentier class, defined solely by the proportion of their earned vs unearned income. Basically, if you can lose a job and still pay your living expenses, then you're in the rentier class. If you have to sell your labor to pay your bills, you're a worker - even if you sell it for a lot of money.
      - wutbrodo 6y ago
        > If you have to sell your labor to pay your bills, you're a worker - even if you sell it for a lot of money. There are useful distinctions even between this though. What Piketty refers to as the "patrimonial middle class" has significant assets during and at the end of their life, but still needs to sell their labor to pay their bills. This distinction aligns more closely with the traditional lower/upper/middle arrangement (they'd be upper-middle class). This article[1] (unfortunately paywalled if you don't have an Economist subscription) covers it pretty well, but it's pretty well-trod ground at this point: there's a substantial chunk of the population that isn't rentier/leisure class, but often aligns with them politically, and your proposal's elision of this group means it's missing an important dynamic in class politics. [1] https://www.economist.com/books-and-arts/2017/06/29/why-the-20-and-not-the-1-are-the-real-problem https://www.economist.com/books-and-arts/2017/06/29/why-the-...
vcarl 6y ago
One significant change since that era of unionization is that programmers can't actually shut down the business with a strike. If programmers stop working, that doesn't actually directly impact revenue—if a group of factory, warehouse, or service workers strike, then the business halts until the strike is resolved. SRE/Ops could take down revenue generation, but that starts to be something with legal liability. Laws prevent businesses from hiring new workers to break a strike, but if you sabotage the code, then my understanding is that there could be criminal charges against you. That's not really relevant in the context of Amazon's _warehouse_ workers unionizing, but I think it's an interesting constraint for us as software developers.
- throwlaplace 6y ago
  >a group of factory, warehouse, or service workers strike, then the business halts until the strike is resolved Well indeed I am suggesting a warehouse worker that we as software engineers support financially
- omeze 6y ago
  I don’t work at AWS bit I think youre being a bit optimistic about the level of automation most services have. If there are no SREs present for a month, things will break at even the most sophisticated tech shops.
  - vcarl 6y ago
    I meant this as a commentary on the strike as a tactic for tech workers generally. SREs and Ops are the teams that seem most able to effectively use a strike to disrupt revenue, to be sure. Many services, though, would be able to operate for months or longer without intervention.
- throwaway17_17 6y ago
  Your statement that ‘Laws prevent businesses from hiring new workers to break a strike’ is not legally correct. The Mackay Doctrine (from the US Supreme Court in NLRB V Mackay) explicitly formulates the right of employers to hire replacement workers. There are some requirements on this action by employers but just wanted to get the legal facts out there.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
int_19h 6y ago
IWW is still around, and even unionizing some shops.

_bxg1 6y ago

> without worker power, attention on its own doesn't actually do anything I don't think this is true. With enough bad press, it starts to make a difference both on the consumer side and the hiring side. I've turned down Amazon recruiters solely based on ethics before, and I haven't held an Amazon Prime membership in years. And I know others who avoid using Amazon unless they really have no other option.

0x262d 6y ago
I agree this is a real effect - to some degree. But the degree to which it causes them to reform is the level of bad press/taking shortcuts which optimizes profit. Not abusing their workers in factories, well, that's a lot of workers and a lot of money; so far they've found it more profitable to try to buy good press. How long will that continue? I'm not sure, but probably a long time. I would caution people to not rely on that given that Amazon has been known to be pretty bad for quite a while with little reform. Rather than finding some optimum on Amazon's terms, if its employees are sufficiently organized they can force their own terms, although their ability to do that does depend to some degree on public perception of it.
- _bxg1 6y ago
  I'm just saying it doesn't have to be either/or. Bad press has a real, if currently small, effect. Organization could have a bigger effect but is also harder to accomplish. All avenues should be explored.

cfqycwz 6y ago

> Warehouse workers are going to have to form a union and threaten to really shut down amazon's profits, in order to defeat these profit-motivated outrages. It's always been like this. People have to self-emancipate. I agree with this! However, it would be very nice if Amazon engineers were organized as well. I know CWA has an ongoing effort to organize tech workers. They're a pretty good union--still what I'd call a "business union," but one of the better ones that understands their power comes from being organized enough to shove the boss around a little. https://www.code-cwa.org/ https://www.code-cwa.org/

slg 6y ago

I don't buy into this "they must lift themselves up by their bootstraps" narrative. It is often an easy excuse for people complicit in a situation to avoid working towards helping the more vulnerable. There is zero reason this type of action needs to originate with warehouse workers. Do you think it would be any less effective if the tech workers at Amazon organized a strike similar to the one you are suggesting the warehouse workers execute? There are numerous reasons why those tech workers are in a better position to actually strike since they have more job security, generally have more financial security, and would likely have an easier time finding a new job if Amazon retaliated.

tehjoker 6y ago
This is true, a solidarity strike by tech workers would absolutely make an FC action more effective and durable. However, how can striking SWE effectively bargain for other people? They don't have the same understanding of FC workers material needs. FC workers must take the lead in fighting for themselves, but other workers can ally with and assist them. SWEs beginning a solidarity strike could show FC workers that resistance is possible. It would be crucial to network with FC organizers to ensure the solidarity strike is achieving FC workers' goals. This is why labor struggles are so difficult. The most powerful movers are the most exploited and dispossessed people, but they don't want to risk what little they have. They are the most powerful because they control the actual production of the company, without them management is helpless. At least in America, I don't want to make a more general claim as people are willing to strike over much less in other countries due to the strength of the labor movement, it's really only when people have nothing left to lose do they fight. We can talk to people in that position, we can discuss how we can support them, but ultimately it's their decision whether to fight or not. EDIT: I'd say my advice to the OP is the most important thing you can do is to network labor organizers (meaning anyone willing to fight for each other, not just with professional unions) between SWEs and FC workers. You should talk regularly and plan how to achieve a series of goals bearing in mind that the FC workers should be in the driver's seat on most decisions. Your goal is to build worker solidarity and worker power independent of management.
- tracker1 6y ago

0x262d 6y ago

I'm starting to reassess my comment. On some level it's true, worker organization is absolutely key and there's no way around that. But it's also important to focus more on what you (the OP) can do. I think that as an Amazon employee, you have somewhat more attention and credibility in public perception, and strategically using your position to publicly criticize them and support worker organization efforts could be fruitful. But it might get you fired. Trying to build support for unionization at work is good, but, legal or not, that will get you fired if you're caught. Getting involved with Tech Workers' Coalition is good, although their actions are limited. I think the best thing you can do is get fully involved in building the broader political, working-class movement against corporate predatory behavior, which I believe is inherent to capitalism. That is part of the purpose of the Tax Amazon campaign in Seattle. If you're here and interested in speaking about that please get in touch on social media. So, get involved with working class organization (you are a member of the working class after all) is a more nuanced answer. Sorry for the initial overemphasis on class struggle fatalism.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]