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If you don't understand the concepts of C - things like pointers - then you don't actually know how computers work and how programming languages are implemented

by tomp 6y ago

If you don't understand the concepts of C - things like pointers - then you don't actually know how computers work and how programming languages are implemented (i.e. how the JavaScript you write actually happens) so, yeah, you're probably not a serious programmer. Copy-paste code from Stack Overflow? Sure. Debug a complex problem or optimize a piece of code? Unlikely.

jcranmer 6y ago
Unsafe Rust is at least as close to the hardware as C is, if not somewhat closer (C doesn't have 8- or 16-bit arithmetic operations, and I believe unsafe Rust doesn't have the strict aliasing rules of C). Arguing that you specifically have to learn C to understand hardware is the gatekeeping I dislike the most, especially because it turns out that C itself can have a pretty bad view of hardware.
- tomp 6y ago
  Sure, which is why I wrote understand not know. I doubt many Rust programmers would have issues writing C (basically just forget about ownership and write plain functions) unlike say Python or JavaScript (or even Java) programmers.
- AzzieElbab 6y ago
  I started my career as C dev, working on driver level software. These days I want to stay as far away from hardware as possible. Hardware is horrible, bugs, bugs, bugs, and more bugs.
goto11 6y ago
If you don't understand assembler then you don't understand how a computer works. C is a higher level language which just happen to be more primitive than most. Knowing C is fine, but thinking C is somehow "the real world" is dangerous, since then you don't understand that the abstractions in C (like pointers or the stack) are just design choices with certain trade-off and that alternatives are possible. Are you suggesting someone who knows say Haskell but not C is not able to debug their own programs?
- tomp 6y ago
  Sure, I agree. I just think the impact is less, since e.g. computers are optimized for C (there's special instructions for manipulating C-like stack). I think of more importance is the concept of registers, which C mostly abstracts away - definitely useful to know, but probably less performance impact than pointers vs. objects.
dunefox 6y ago
> Copy-paste code from Stack Overflow? Sure. Debug a complex problem or optimize a piece of code? Unlikely. What a ridiculous thing to say. One doesn't need to know how programming languages are implemented or 'how pointers work' or even know C in order to be a proficient programmer. This is just nonsensical gatekeeping.
a1369209993 6y ago
> If you don't understand the concepts of C - things like pointers - then [...] you're probably not a serious programmer. This is true, but doesn't actually require knowing (or even having heard of) C specifically.

by tomp 6y ago

jcranmer 6y ago

Unsafe Rust is at least as close to the hardware as C is, if not somewhat closer (C doesn't have 8- or 16-bit arithmetic operations, and I believe unsafe Rust doesn't have the strict aliasing rules of C). Arguing that you specifically have to learn C to understand hardware is the gatekeeping I dislike the most, especially because it turns out that C itself can have a pretty bad view of hardware.

tomp 6y ago
Sure, which is why I wrote understand not know. I doubt many Rust programmers would have issues writing C (basically just forget about ownership and write plain functions) unlike say Python or JavaScript (or even Java) programmers.
AzzieElbab 6y ago
I started my career as C dev, working on driver level software. These days I want to stay as far away from hardware as possible. Hardware is horrible, bugs, bugs, bugs, and more bugs.

goto11 6y ago

If you don't understand assembler then you don't understand how a computer works. C is a higher level language which just happen to be more primitive than most. Knowing C is fine, but thinking C is somehow "the real world" is dangerous, since then you don't understand that the abstractions in C (like pointers or the stack) are just design choices with certain trade-off and that alternatives are possible. Are you suggesting someone who knows say Haskell but not C is not able to debug their own programs?

tomp 6y ago
Sure, I agree. I just think the impact is less, since e.g. computers are optimized for C (there's special instructions for manipulating C-like stack). I think of more importance is the concept of registers, which C mostly abstracts away - definitely useful to know, but probably less performance impact than pointers vs. objects.

dunefox 6y ago

> Copy-paste code from Stack Overflow? Sure. Debug a complex problem or optimize a piece of code? Unlikely. What a ridiculous thing to say. One doesn't need to know how programming languages are implemented or 'how pointers work' or even know C in order to be a proficient programmer. This is just nonsensical gatekeeping.

a1369209993 6y ago

> If you don't understand the concepts of C - things like pointers - then [...] you're probably not a serious programmer. This is true, but doesn't actually require knowing (or even having heard of) C specifically.