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> I think the left libertarians and the socialist anarchists could actually be allies if they could get past all their language differences and knee jerk reacti

> I think the left libertarians and the socialist anarchists could actually be allies if they could get past all their language differences and knee jerk reactions. Could you give an example of what you mean by this?

TaylorAlexander 6y ago
Sure. Both groups want an end to control by the state. They have different ideas about voluntary structures of power in a stateless society, but as they are voluntary I don’t see an inherent conflict. However they have such different terms for things they typically get really upset at each other when talking. For example they use the term “capitalism” very differently. Socialist anarchists are against “capitalism” for a lot of reasons, but one of them is that is enables cronyism. However libertarians are pro “capitalism” and yet very against cronyism. So both groups are strongly against cronyism, but they can’t seem to get along well enough to fight cronyism together. Libertarians advocate for “capitalism” which they see as markets unimpeded by the state. Anarchists also don’t want the state interfering in their exchanges. They may place rules on their exchanges but this would be on a voluntary basis, so they could seemingly coexist with libertarians who just want to rely on markets. Both sides also seem to be against intellectual property restrictions. Another place to work together. In my personal vision, an anarchist communist society could, and I think should, still take advantage of markets for certain situations. I think it makes sense for individuals to be protected by communal structures, but those communes might use markets to distribute goods in addition to politically coordinated exchanges. Libertarians don’t want much of the above, but if it’s truly voluntary they’re not against it either. Though they are super touchy when you talk to them about this and they don’t accept any of it until they understand you really want it to be voluntary. My libertarian friend also really surprises me sometimes. He said recently the state should release control of all hospitals to the hospital workers who have been running them. Like they did some kind of homesteading so they should be the ones to own the hospital. Well that sounds a lot like a worker owned collective!
- ChristianBundy 6y ago
  I think it's important to recognize that markets can exist without capitalism, and the position "markets are useful sometimes" doesn't mean that you believe in capitalism. Maybe start here? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kl2WH88wmWc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kl2WH88wmWc If you have questions I'd be happy to answer them, but I'd recommend doing more research before making sweeping generalizations about "anarchists", "libertarians", "capitalism", etc.
  - TaylorAlexander 6y ago
    I’ve met Richard Wolff and have read his book Democracy at Work. I’m pretty familiar with his work. I think you’re missing my point. I think left libertarians and socialist anarchists could be allies. They seem to want almost the same thing. They just can’t stand talking to each other because they use terms that make the other extremely skeptical. It’s difficult for me to use precise language when trying to bring two groups together who use that language very differently. So I know I’m speaking in broad terms. Certainly anarchist and libertarian are very broad and not all of them think alike. But I think people who like the idea of anarchist socialism might actually like what certain left libertarians have to say. That is my point. Don’t take my word for it. Check out Roderick Long and you tell me if he makes sense to you. https://youtu.be/t4hjO1ak4_M https://youtu.be/t4hjO1ak4_M
    - ChristianBundy 6y ago
      > left libertarians and socialist anarchists What gives you the impression that these are different groups that "could be allies" but "can't stand talking to each other"? Every resource I can find seems to say that social anarchism is a subset of left libertarianism. Example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-libertarianism#/media/File:Libertarianism-groups-diagram.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-libertarianism#/media/Fil...

TaylorAlexander 6y ago

Sure. Both groups want an end to control by the state. They have different ideas about voluntary structures of power in a stateless society, but as they are voluntary I don’t see an inherent conflict. However they have such different terms for things they typically get really upset at each other when talking. For example they use the term “capitalism” very differently. Socialist anarchists are against “capitalism” for a lot of reasons, but one of them is that is enables cronyism. However libertarians are pro “capitalism” and yet very against cronyism. So both groups are strongly against cronyism, but they can’t seem to get along well enough to fight cronyism together. Libertarians advocate for “capitalism” which they see as markets unimpeded by the state. Anarchists also don’t want the state interfering in their exchanges. They may place rules on their exchanges but this would be on a voluntary basis, so they could seemingly coexist with libertarians who just want to rely on markets. Both sides also seem to be against intellectual property restrictions. Another place to work together. In my personal vision, an anarchist communist society could, and I think should, still take advantage of markets for certain situations. I think it makes sense for individuals to be protected by communal structures, but those communes might use markets to distribute goods in addition to politically coordinated exchanges. Libertarians don’t want much of the above, but if it’s truly voluntary they’re not against it either. Though they are super touchy when you talk to them about this and they don’t accept any of it until they understand you really want it to be voluntary. My libertarian friend also really surprises me sometimes. He said recently the state should release control of all hospitals to the hospital workers who have been running them. Like they did some kind of homesteading so they should be the ones to own the hospital. Well that sounds a lot like a worker owned collective!

ChristianBundy 6y ago
I think it's important to recognize that markets can exist without capitalism, and the position "markets are useful sometimes" doesn't mean that you believe in capitalism. Maybe start here? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kl2WH88wmWc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kl2WH88wmWc If you have questions I'd be happy to answer them, but I'd recommend doing more research before making sweeping generalizations about "anarchists", "libertarians", "capitalism", etc.
- TaylorAlexander 6y ago
  I’ve met Richard Wolff and have read his book Democracy at Work. I’m pretty familiar with his work. I think you’re missing my point. I think left libertarians and socialist anarchists could be allies. They seem to want almost the same thing. They just can’t stand talking to each other because they use terms that make the other extremely skeptical. It’s difficult for me to use precise language when trying to bring two groups together who use that language very differently. So I know I’m speaking in broad terms. Certainly anarchist and libertarian are very broad and not all of them think alike. But I think people who like the idea of anarchist socialism might actually like what certain left libertarians have to say. That is my point. Don’t take my word for it. Check out Roderick Long and you tell me if he makes sense to you. https://youtu.be/t4hjO1ak4_M https://youtu.be/t4hjO1ak4_M
  - ChristianBundy 6y ago
    > left libertarians and socialist anarchists What gives you the impression that these are different groups that "could be allies" but "can't stand talking to each other"? Every resource I can find seems to say that social anarchism is a subset of left libertarianism. Example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-libertarianism#/media/File:Libertarianism-groups-diagram.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-libertarianism#/media/Fil...