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To be clear, this doesn't just contain the source code of the software. It also contains the Verilog for the N64 GPU and other important hardware component, whi

To be clear, this doesn't just contain the source code of the software. It also contains the Verilog for the N64 GPU and other important hardware component, which is hugely important. From what I gather, it also contains full version history from their VCS. While it is very interesting, it's worth noting that anybody hoping to use this for anything "serious" risks getting the Nintendo lawyers on their ass. Emulators won't touch this, neither will console clones. This leak is both a blessing and a curse.

zurn 6y ago
I'm betting the emulators will use this. They develop against the ROMs without permission too, after all. Of course they won't incorporate unlicensed copyrighted things from the leak in their own code, but they don't need to.
- saagarjha 6y ago
  Every emulator will tell you to acquire your ROMs legally.
  - zurn 6y ago
    It's of course possible to acquire the N64 Verilog legally too.
    - saagarjha 6y ago
      I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic, because I'm not aware of any ways to do this save for writing the Verilog from scratch.
      - zurn 6y ago
        Legally speaking, you could have legit access to the verilog by working for one of the existing licensees - eg Nintendo, chip companies, fab companies. Or by buying or otherwise acquiring (eg patent trolling settlement) a license to it from Nintendo. It's not really likely, but it's within the realm of possibility. Somewhat less likely than legally acquired game ROMs, sure, but only a matter of degree...
cycloptic 6y ago
I don't support this action from the leakers but clearly there is a large amount of interest in this information. Now would be the time for Nintendo to seriously consider open sourcing some of this stuff so they have a chance to put it out there legally and in a way that benefits them, instead of the current situation where it only benefits shady outfits selling aftermarket raspberry pis loaded with illegal ROMs, that were never going to partner with them anyway.
- zozbot234 6y ago
  > Now would be the time for Nintendo to seriously consider open sourcing some of this stuff Unfortunately, Nintendo has never done anything like this. Maybe some reputable organization like a computing museum could ask them to place this information in escrow in the Internet Archive, so that it can be released "properly" after copyrights expire and trade secrets have long become irrelevant. But there's no way they're going to do more than that.
  - cycloptic 6y ago
    A few years ago I would have believed this, but current Nintendo consoles include many open source components: https://www.nintendo.co.jp/support/oss/ https://www.nintendo.co.jp/support/oss/ If this trend continues, it would be prudent of them to find bigger and better ways to contribute back.
    - ballenf 6y ago
      I know what you mean and agree that companies using open source should contribute back to it. But I also think that the contribution to society from Nintendo's products should also be valued. Just because we pay for those games, doesn't mean our lives aren't better than they would be if the company didn't exist and we spent the money on something else. They also contribute by increasing the market competition for games. They make other games and games companies better. They encourage innovation in ways that other companies wouldn't think about or wouldn't prioritize otherwise. I'm totally ok with companies utilizing open source to make my life better in this way. Contributing back code for others to use is also an important activity.
bluedino 6y ago
Couldn't an emulator use a module as the core, and leave it up to the user to find the 'illegal' emulator core and use it? Kind of like how you need a copyrighted BIOS or ROM to use certain emulators, but of course those files can't be distributed with the emulator.
tyingq 6y ago
"Emulators won't touch this, neither will console clones" I suppose they wouldn't copy it outright. But wouldn't it be useful as a reference to fix long-standing bugs, improve performance, etc?
- tobylane 6y ago
  You could have one group document what the leaks describe, then another group implement from the documentation?
  - colejohnson66 6y ago
    Isn’t that what clean room reverse engineering is?
    - nefitty 6y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_room_design https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_room_design Very cool. I didn’t remember that this had been a plot point in Halt and Catch Fire.
      - karlding 6y ago
        This is the main plot point in S01E01, when Gordon Clark and Joe MacMillan reverse engineer the IBM and dump the BIOS (and is later mentioned a few times when Cameron Howe is rewriting the BIOS). Spoilers ahead if you haven't watched the show (quotes from S01E01: I/O): > Gordon Clark: A personal computer, like any other computer, is just a nothing box full of electronic switches and hardware. You know, the IBM, the Altair, the Apple II... it's all the same junk. Anyone can buy all this stuff off the shelf right now. It's called "open architecture." I mean, IBM, they basically don't own anything inside the machine. > Joe MacMillan: Except the chip. > Gordon Clark: Yeah, well, except what's on the chip. The BIOS is on one of these chips, we just don't know which one. The ROM BIOS is the only part of the machine IBM actually designed. I mean, it is the program, it is the magic. The bad news is they copyrighted it and they own how it works. The good news is there's a way around that, sort of. > Joe MacMillan: Reverse engineering. After dumping the BIOS, IBM decides to sue Cardiff Electric because Joe MacMillan tells IBM about their little "side project", forcing the company to dedicate resources towards actually building a IBM PC clone. In the meeting with Cardiff Electric's lawyer (Barry Shields), they agree to do a clean room implementation. > John Bosworth: Why can't we fire these peckerheads? > Barry Shields: Because then you'll lose this lawsuit. Fire them, shelve their work, you're essentially admitting guilt. > John Bosworth: Okay, so what's the solution, Barry? > Barry Shields: We legitimize the project. > John Bosworth: What? > Barry Shields: Go the other way. We say Cardiff Electric as a company has been pursuing PC development all along. You take Clark's findings on the BIOS chip, you tell an engineer to build a unit that operates and performs in exactly the same way, but you don't tell him how to do it. > John Bosworth: Hell, I don't think we have one engineer capable of building a BIOS from scratch other than "Sonny Bono" over here. > Barry Shields: And you can't use him or any other engineer we currently employ. > John Bosworth: So we have to hire? > Barry Shields: Yes, someone who doesn't know us or IBM, and certainly hasn't seen the contents of this binder. Essentially, all the law stipulates is that he can't be hands-on in the actual chip creation. > John Bosworth: And we can't fire them. > Barry Shields: No, not right now. > John Bosworth: So we get out of this by actually building a PC clone? This is your brilliant idea to save our hides, Barry? For God's sake, man! > Barry Shields: No. Actually, it was MacMillan's. > John Bosworth: You son of a bitch. And then later, when they hire Cameron Howe as the programmer to write the BIOS for their clone, there is a whole scene on her first day where Barry Shields interviews her to make sure everything is legal, and that she wasn't involved in the reverse engineering. > Barry Shields: Answer honestly. This is for legal record. False answers put you at risk of perjury, you understand? > (Cameron nods) > Barry Shields: I'm sorry, you have to answer "yes" or "I do." > Cameron Howe: Oh, yes, I do. > Barry Shields: Have you ever attempted to disassemble or deconstruct any product manufactured by International Business Machines, more commonly known as IBM? > Cameron Howe: Uh, no, I have not. > Barry Shields: Have you ever attempted to reverse engineer any product or equipment made by IBM? > Cameron Howe: No, I have not. > Barry Shields: Have you ever attempted to reverse engineer any microchips, microcode, or any computer hardware while under the employ of a business or corporation? > Cameron Howe: No, I have not. > John Bosworth: Well, welcome to the tiniest, leakiest lifeboat you ever tried to paddle to shore in. The rest of the season highlights how Cameron is placed in a "clean room" (aka the storage closet) without looking at the binder containing the dumped BIOS.
wolfram74 6y ago
It's a bit of shame, too, because from what I gather, the N64 has a bit of an atypical architecture[1] that's made it hard to get the same quality of emulation that the game cube and wii have. It doesn't have a straight up and down GPU, it has what it calls a reality processing unit, that does graphics and sound. And it can be reconfigured with cartridge specific microcode? It's getting into the weeds on hardware design and I'm not experienced enough to have a strong opinion on the matter. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo_64_technical_specifications#Reality_Coprocessor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo_64_technical_specific...
- coldpie 6y ago
  Oh man, Factor 5 is infamous for doing wild things on consoles. A little bit about their custom N64 GPU microcode is discussed here: https://thesolidstategamer.wordpress.com/2014/07/18/playstation-versus-n64-a-hardware-analysis/ https://thesolidstategamer.wordpress.com/2014/07/18/playstat... Edit: Developer interview here https://www.ign.com/articles/1998/02/27/journey-to-the-center-of-the-n64 https://www.ign.com/articles/1998/02/27/journey-to-the-cente... and much more in-depth technical examination here https://olivieryuyu.blogspot.com/2020/01/introduction-factor-5-used-to-be-one-of.html https://olivieryuyu.blogspot.com/2020/01/introduction-factor... Factor 5 did so many wild things to the GameCube, they have their own tag on excellent Dolphin blog: https://dolphin-emu.org/blog/tags/Factor5/ https://dolphin-emu.org/blog/tags/Factor5/
  - DanCarvajal 6y ago
    It's because we're all sitting around waiting to play Rogue Squadron II and II again with everything perfect.
- Jasper_ 6y ago
  The N64 emulation scene has always been heavily drama filled, going back at least 20 years to the original Oman archives. While the system architecture is bizarre, that's fine, we can cope with that. It's always just been a very toxic social space that has pushed a lot of the more talented emulator developers away. As someone who is in "emulation-adjacent" communities, just yesterday I ran into a giant new pocket of N64 drama I was previously unaware of.
saddlerustle 6y ago
The N64 GPU Verilog has been circulating for like 10 years, that's not new in this leak.
derefr 6y ago
> it's worth noting that anybody hoping to use this for anything "serious" risks getting the Nintendo lawyers on their ass. Emulators won't touch this, neither will console clones. How about historians writing about Nintendo's development process by referencing the VCS history? Would they get in trouble?
gge 6y ago
Couldn't someone anonymously publish an emulator using this code à la Satoshi?

zurn 6y ago

I'm betting the emulators will use this. They develop against the ROMs without permission too, after all. Of course they won't incorporate unlicensed copyrighted things from the leak in their own code, but they don't need to.

saagarjha 6y ago
Every emulator will tell you to acquire your ROMs legally.
- zurn 6y ago
  It's of course possible to acquire the N64 Verilog legally too.
  - saagarjha 6y ago
    I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic, because I'm not aware of any ways to do this save for writing the Verilog from scratch.
    - zurn 6y ago
      Legally speaking, you could have legit access to the verilog by working for one of the existing licensees - eg Nintendo, chip companies, fab companies. Or by buying or otherwise acquiring (eg patent trolling settlement) a license to it from Nintendo. It's not really likely, but it's within the realm of possibility. Somewhat less likely than legally acquired game ROMs, sure, but only a matter of degree...

cycloptic 6y ago

I don't support this action from the leakers but clearly there is a large amount of interest in this information. Now would be the time for Nintendo to seriously consider open sourcing some of this stuff so they have a chance to put it out there legally and in a way that benefits them, instead of the current situation where it only benefits shady outfits selling aftermarket raspberry pis loaded with illegal ROMs, that were never going to partner with them anyway.

zozbot234 6y ago
> Now would be the time for Nintendo to seriously consider open sourcing some of this stuff Unfortunately, Nintendo has never done anything like this. Maybe some reputable organization like a computing museum could ask them to place this information in escrow in the Internet Archive, so that it can be released "properly" after copyrights expire and trade secrets have long become irrelevant. But there's no way they're going to do more than that.
- cycloptic 6y ago
  A few years ago I would have believed this, but current Nintendo consoles include many open source components: https://www.nintendo.co.jp/support/oss/ https://www.nintendo.co.jp/support/oss/ If this trend continues, it would be prudent of them to find bigger and better ways to contribute back.
  - ballenf 6y ago
    I know what you mean and agree that companies using open source should contribute back to it. But I also think that the contribution to society from Nintendo's products should also be valued. Just because we pay for those games, doesn't mean our lives aren't better than they would be if the company didn't exist and we spent the money on something else. They also contribute by increasing the market competition for games. They make other games and games companies better. They encourage innovation in ways that other companies wouldn't think about or wouldn't prioritize otherwise. I'm totally ok with companies utilizing open source to make my life better in this way. Contributing back code for others to use is also an important activity.

bluedino 6y ago

Couldn't an emulator use a module as the core, and leave it up to the user to find the 'illegal' emulator core and use it? Kind of like how you need a copyrighted BIOS or ROM to use certain emulators, but of course those files can't be distributed with the emulator.

tyingq 6y ago

"Emulators won't touch this, neither will console clones" I suppose they wouldn't copy it outright. But wouldn't it be useful as a reference to fix long-standing bugs, improve performance, etc?

tobylane 6y ago
You could have one group document what the leaks describe, then another group implement from the documentation?
- colejohnson66 6y ago
  Isn’t that what clean room reverse engineering is?
  - nefitty 6y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_room_design https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_room_design Very cool. I didn’t remember that this had been a plot point in Halt and Catch Fire.
    - karlding 6y ago
      This is the main plot point in S01E01, when Gordon Clark and Joe MacMillan reverse engineer the IBM and dump the BIOS (and is later mentioned a few times when Cameron Howe is rewriting the BIOS). Spoilers ahead if you haven't watched the show (quotes from S01E01: I/O): > Gordon Clark: A personal computer, like any other computer, is just a nothing box full of electronic switches and hardware. You know, the IBM, the Altair, the Apple II... it's all the same junk. Anyone can buy all this stuff off the shelf right now. It's called "open architecture." I mean, IBM, they basically don't own anything inside the machine. > Joe MacMillan: Except the chip. > Gordon Clark: Yeah, well, except what's on the chip. The BIOS is on one of these chips, we just don't know which one. The ROM BIOS is the only part of the machine IBM actually designed. I mean, it is the program, it is the magic. The bad news is they copyrighted it and they own how it works. The good news is there's a way around that, sort of. > Joe MacMillan: Reverse engineering. After dumping the BIOS, IBM decides to sue Cardiff Electric because Joe MacMillan tells IBM about their little "side project", forcing the company to dedicate resources towards actually building a IBM PC clone. In the meeting with Cardiff Electric's lawyer (Barry Shields), they agree to do a clean room implementation. > John Bosworth: Why can't we fire these peckerheads? > Barry Shields: Because then you'll lose this lawsuit. Fire them, shelve their work, you're essentially admitting guilt. > John Bosworth: Okay, so what's the solution, Barry? > Barry Shields: We legitimize the project. > John Bosworth: What? > Barry Shields: Go the other way. We say Cardiff Electric as a company has been pursuing PC development all along. You take Clark's findings on the BIOS chip, you tell an engineer to build a unit that operates and performs in exactly the same way, but you don't tell him how to do it. > John Bosworth: Hell, I don't think we have one engineer capable of building a BIOS from scratch other than "Sonny Bono" over here. > Barry Shields: And you can't use him or any other engineer we currently employ. > John Bosworth: So we have to hire? > Barry Shields: Yes, someone who doesn't know us or IBM, and certainly hasn't seen the contents of this binder. Essentially, all the law stipulates is that he can't be hands-on in the actual chip creation. > John Bosworth: And we can't fire them. > Barry Shields: No, not right now. > John Bosworth: So we get out of this by actually building a PC clone? This is your brilliant idea to save our hides, Barry? For God's sake, man! > Barry Shields: No. Actually, it was MacMillan's. > John Bosworth: You son of a bitch. And then later, when they hire Cameron Howe as the programmer to write the BIOS for their clone, there is a whole scene on her first day where Barry Shields interviews her to make sure everything is legal, and that she wasn't involved in the reverse engineering. > Barry Shields: Answer honestly. This is for legal record. False answers put you at risk of perjury, you understand? > (Cameron nods) > Barry Shields: I'm sorry, you have to answer "yes" or "I do." > Cameron Howe: Oh, yes, I do. > Barry Shields: Have you ever attempted to disassemble or deconstruct any product manufactured by International Business Machines, more commonly known as IBM? > Cameron Howe: Uh, no, I have not. > Barry Shields: Have you ever attempted to reverse engineer any product or equipment made by IBM? > Cameron Howe: No, I have not. > Barry Shields: Have you ever attempted to reverse engineer any microchips, microcode, or any computer hardware while under the employ of a business or corporation? > Cameron Howe: No, I have not. > John Bosworth: Well, welcome to the tiniest, leakiest lifeboat you ever tried to paddle to shore in. The rest of the season highlights how Cameron is placed in a "clean room" (aka the storage closet) without looking at the binder containing the dumped BIOS.

wolfram74 6y ago

It's a bit of shame, too, because from what I gather, the N64 has a bit of an atypical architecture[1] that's made it hard to get the same quality of emulation that the game cube and wii have. It doesn't have a straight up and down GPU, it has what it calls a reality processing unit, that does graphics and sound. And it can be reconfigured with cartridge specific microcode? It's getting into the weeds on hardware design and I'm not experienced enough to have a strong opinion on the matter. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo_64_technical_specifications#Reality_Coprocessor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo_64_technical_specific...

coldpie 6y ago
Oh man, Factor 5 is infamous for doing wild things on consoles. A little bit about their custom N64 GPU microcode is discussed here: https://thesolidstategamer.wordpress.com/2014/07/18/playstation-versus-n64-a-hardware-analysis/ https://thesolidstategamer.wordpress.com/2014/07/18/playstat... Edit: Developer interview here https://www.ign.com/articles/1998/02/27/journey-to-the-center-of-the-n64 https://www.ign.com/articles/1998/02/27/journey-to-the-cente... and much more in-depth technical examination here https://olivieryuyu.blogspot.com/2020/01/introduction-factor-5-used-to-be-one-of.html https://olivieryuyu.blogspot.com/2020/01/introduction-factor... Factor 5 did so many wild things to the GameCube, they have their own tag on excellent Dolphin blog: https://dolphin-emu.org/blog/tags/Factor5/ https://dolphin-emu.org/blog/tags/Factor5/
- DanCarvajal 6y ago
  It's because we're all sitting around waiting to play Rogue Squadron II and II again with everything perfect.
Jasper_ 6y ago
The N64 emulation scene has always been heavily drama filled, going back at least 20 years to the original Oman archives. While the system architecture is bizarre, that's fine, we can cope with that. It's always just been a very toxic social space that has pushed a lot of the more talented emulator developers away. As someone who is in "emulation-adjacent" communities, just yesterday I ran into a giant new pocket of N64 drama I was previously unaware of.

saddlerustle 6y ago

The N64 GPU Verilog has been circulating for like 10 years, that's not new in this leak.

derefr 6y ago

> it's worth noting that anybody hoping to use this for anything "serious" risks getting the Nintendo lawyers on their ass. Emulators won't touch this, neither will console clones. How about historians writing about Nintendo's development process by referencing the VCS history? Would they get in trouble?

gge 6y ago

Couldn't someone anonymously publish an emulator using this code à la Satoshi?